Arwen vs. Galadriel

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Yes she had an army, but it´s explicitly stated that

It seems Galadriel the the main reason Lorien was safe.

I always thught Rivendell was safe because it was located in a valley, I never read something about a spell making Rivendell safe.

That was one of the reasons the other was Elrond, just like with Galadriel. Gandalf himself says that Rivendell would be the very last to fall.

Yes, it may be sure that Gandalf and Aragon would be in greater need and therefore greater tempted, but maybe Galadriel felt that she was in the greatest need, that would be subjective thinking on her part, it´s dependent on the character and how despaired one person is, maybe Galadriel is at this point the most despaired. (besides, the entire world and everyone good in it was dear to her too)
I mean, look at her lament or That´s just my take on it, I know Gollum was probably not despaired, but you can´t compare them, she had her own reasonings to be so tempted and I don´t think it was because of her power longing, cause at this stage I don´t think she longed for power that much any more.

It is due to the fault in her. Only after she rejects the Ring is her ban lifted. It's only then that she has realised why she was wrong and repented.

Yes it is ironic, but that´s not something she achieved herself, like I said she was just lcky to marry Aragon.

Her claim to be Queen of Elves is something she had of her own merit. She rules all the elvish lands.

How that? I should read the Silm again

It goes into deeper depth about this in Morgoth's ring. Men are not innocents abandoned by the Valar and corrupted by Morgoth. They had the fortune of Eru himself speaking to them, but they chose Morgoth.

Yo situate it in such a negative light, Thingol was apparently OK with it, even giving Finrod a tip and unless I´m wrong, they all respected him as their hight king, didn´t they? Ulmo supported that too, helping Fingon.

Thingol was not happy with it and they did not respect him as the High King. The sons of Feanor even called him erroneously a Dark Elf, forgetting he had seen the light of the trees.

So there is the rule not to leave Aman without permission?!?! If that´s the case than the Noldor really never were free. Of course they are free, I know that, your comment just don´t fit, if you leave out the kinslayers, then they just rejected their council to stay and that justifies a ban?!?! So the Eldar of Valinor are expected always to agree with the Valar in all matters and are never to confess their own opinion?!?!
Just for exemple, there is an elf on Tol Eressea (who has done no crime) and the Valar, or one Valar commands them to come to Valimar and then the elf is not in the mood for that (for whatever reason), would the Valar punish him or her?
I think I don´t get the relationship between the Valar and elves, how they life with each other.

You want it both ways. If you refuse the council and advise of the Valar then why should the Valar help you? If you choose to leave the home they granted you, why should they give you a chance to return? The elves are lucky the Valar are merciful. By all rights the Valar could just abandon the Noldor to fade in Middle Earth.

But for the younger Noldor (like Galadriel) it was, I beleive Tirion was compleated, so she had not the opportunity to be a part of the people who achieved something in their life.

That was not the sole reason. They wanted power and wide lands to rule, they believed the lies of Morgoth. This cannot be escaped. The reasons the Noldor left were tainted.

I disagree, besides the Silmaril, the greatest works of the Noldor were their kingdoms in ME. IMHO

NO city on ME was as fair as Tirion, which they built in Valinor.

I don´t think wanting a own realm is greedy and selfish, the elves of Lorien for example were happy to have a leader again.
Was Turgon selfish or greedy in building Gondolin? It was admired by many. Common elves would be happy that someone is coming who takes the reins.
You can´t work against an enemy if you aren´t organized, sure there was Thingol, but if there are too many people you need more then one king, or why are there 3 or 4 elven kings in aman? (Would Thingol be King in Aman again?)

Yes wanting to rule is selfish. The kings should be there to serve the people. The Rangers are the perfect example. Even when they are denied the glory, prestige and honour they deserve, they never stop protecting their subjects. That is true nobility.

Slightly off topic, but I was reading why Cirdan had greater foresight than even Elrond. Tolkien being the sort of writer he was, needed to explain why Cirdan would have greater foresight than Elrond, who had divine blood. The answer is Cirdan greatly wanted to go to Valinor, to see the Two Trees and to meet his kin and close friend Olwe. Yet at the request of the Valar he stayed and helped those in Middle Earth. That is why the Valar rewarded him with such great foresight.

The Princes of the Noldor were thinking about themselves and not what was best for their people. This was selfish and based on pride.

And the princes never suppressed anyone, the common Noldor who followed obviously were content being under their rule.

Yes, but they should have done what was best for their people and not only to extend their power and glory.

She was even banned in a version where she wasn´t proud and was not with the Noldor and never saw Namo declaring the doom.

Yes, because she knew in her heart even in this version she should have gone back to seek council from the Valar about what should be done. In this version her pride leads her to leaving Aman to thwart Feanor. Either way pride led her to an unwise decision.

This is the difference between Glorfindel and the other princes like Fingon and Turgon. Glorfindel left only out of his kinship to Turgon and a desire to help his people. Though he was wrong to rebel his motives were selfless and he was rewarded.

So you say that she wanted to return but was too proud to do so? I read it as she was too proud to return but didn´t wanted to return anyway.

No I am saying she KNEW it was the right thing to return, but was to proud to do the right thing and did what she wanted.

It's not a coincidence in Tolkien that people without pride ending up ruling.

Aragorn inherits the kingdom Isildur lost, Finarfin inherits the kingship that Fingolfin/Feanor lost. Arwen becomes the great Queen, that Galadriel never becomes.

That said Galadriel was very great and very powerful. She suffered for her mistakes and learned from them. She played a pivotal role in the destruction of Sauron and is rightly held in high esteem.

[Mithalwen]

Arwen does not rule anywhere or anyone. She is merely Aragorn's queen consort. Compared to Galadriel she is a very dull character. She exists merely to to be some sort of reward or enticement for Aragorn.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Arwen does not rule anywhere or anyone. She is merely Aragorn's queen consort. Compared to Galadriel she is a very dull character. She exists merely to to be some sort of reward or enticement for Aragorn.

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss

And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands.

It is through Arwen that Eldarion inherits the elvish lands and it is Arwen alone known as the Queen of Elves.

Arwen seems to be recognised by all the remaining Elves as their queen. This is independent of her marriage to Aragorn.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss

And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands.

It is through Arwen that Eldarion inherits the elvish lands and it is Arwen alone known as the Queen of Elves.

Arwen seems to be recognised by all the remaining Elves as their queen. This is independent of her marriage to Aragorn.

I seriously don't want to enter this very furious-looking debate on this thread, but...

...Queen of Elves? Really? I have to admit, I have never been paying especial attention to Arwen (because if you ask me, her portrayal is boring - whatever can be said about the "beauty image of Lúthien", sure, but she really does not do much anything in the books, and that much is a fact; it's of course the author's doing, but that's it). But anyway, what I wanted to say: where did the "Queen of Elves" idea come from? I am not aware of anything like that being mentioned in the books. (Which horrifies me, because I thought I should know such things!) She is the queen of the renewed reunited kingdom, for sure, along with Aragorn. But Queen of Elves? No idea.

Most of the Elves had left Middle-Earth anyway, and those who stayed were mostly the wood-elves in Lórien, or also in Mirkwood, who certainly would not have suddenly accepted a random "queen of Elves" from elsewhere. They had been governing themselves for ages, so why now. And Rivendell Elves more or less all departed West.

Cellurdur, can you provide any quote about this, or anything?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I seriously don't want to enter this very furious-looking debate on this thread, but...

...Queen of Elves? Really? I have to admit, I have never been paying especial attention to Arwen (because if you ask me, her portrayal is boring - whatever can be said about the "beauty image of Lúthien", sure, but she really does not do much anything in the books, and that much is a fact; it's of course the author's doing, but that's it). But anyway, what I wanted to say: where did the "Queen of Elves" idea come from? I am not aware of anything like that being mentioned in the books. (Which horrifies me, because I thought I should know such things!) She is the queen of the renewed reunited kingdom, for sure, along with Aragorn. But Queen of Elves? No idea.

Most of the Elves had left Middle-Earth anyway, and those who stayed were mostly the wood-elves in Lórien, or also in Mirkwood, who certainly would not have suddenly accepted a random "queen of Elves" from elsewhere. They had been governing themselves for ages, so why now. And Rivendell Elves more or less all departed West.

Cellurdur, can you provide any quote about this, or anything?

I agree that Arwen does not do much in the War of the Ring, but none of the elves do. Galdor is probably the same Lord of Gondolin, but what does he do? Even Glorfindel the equal of the Maiar does not have a huge role.

It's in the fourth age where we are to presume Arwen takes more action.

As for her role as 'Queen of Elves' I will provide you the details.

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss-LOTR Appendix A

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I agree that Arwen does not do much in the War of the Ring, but none of the elves do. Galdor is probably the same Lord of Gondolin, but what does he do? Even Glorfindel the equal of the Maiar does not have a huge role.

It's in the fourth age where we are to presume Arwen takes more action.

Of course, of course. The age of the Elves is past. But that's what I'm aiming at. Arwen does not do anything much in the War, and later she becomes "Queen Mother", but we don't hear anything more about it. Not to diminish her role in giving Aragorn moral support throughout all those years even during the War, but it's all simply "off-screen". Speaking from the perspective of the story, she is not a very interesting character, that was all I was saying.

Though also (see below), I don't believe her role would have changed very much in the Fourth Age. She would still be by Aragorn's side (now also physically) and support him, do what a queen can do for her people, but it probably would not differ much from what she was doing in Rivendell. It certainly has its worth, but my point is that there won't be any marked difference from the Third Age, unlike you seemed to imply.

As for her role as 'Queen of Elves' I will provide you the details.

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss-LOTR Appendix A

Right you are. I stand corrected. Speaking of that, I think you have something to boast about, since you have just managed to do something not many on this forum have accomplished - if any at all - that is, you have managed to tell me about something I had no idea about. That's not to say I presume I know everything, it's more like that it struck me as a surprise that it hasn't happened before, to my knowledge, that I'd be so surprised about not being aware of something

Although, to be honest, after looking at it, the sentence is such one small remark lost in the text that I would not have probably even noticed it if somebody didn't point it out to me. (Well, exactly - I really didn't.) I think I just read it as "the queen of men" ... "and elves" (as a bonus, since she is an Elf, at least by origin. I.e. I did not see it as something telling about her "subjects", who would be Elves, but rather "she is an Elven queen", i.e. a queen, who happens to be an Elf).

In any case however, she would have ruled over fairly few Elves, really. Of course also the word "ruled" is a bit inappropriate here, even Elrond did not really "rule". (Nobody "rules" over the Elves in later ages anymore.) But yes, she was their queen, if nominally, by bloodline, after Elrond - of course. But it isn't really that much. Her "subjects" would be only the Elves in Rivendell (and with a questionmark any who might have remained in the Grey Havens, but not even sure about that. If any had remained there anyway). The Wood-Elves had been left to their own, we are told.

The remaining Elves in Rivendell were her brothers, from what we know, and possibly a few other fellows. So I think if you said she was the queen a few dozens of Elves, you'd be very close to the truth. So all in all, her title was not really anything she could boast about.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss

And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands.

It is through Arwen that Eldarion inherits the elvish lands and it is Arwen alone known as the Queen of Elves.

Arwen seems to be recognised by all the remaining Elves as their queen. This is independent of her marriage to Aragorn.

Where is any evidence that Eldarion inherits "the elvish lands" or Arwen is recognised as Queen by any remaining elves? I can find the first sentence in my LOTR but not the second. And having it on Kindle I have been able to search key words.

The first sentence on it's own is hardly more substantial than Frodo naming Mrs Maggot a Queen. She does not rule. When Aragorn gives up his life it is Eldarion who rules. How she could become Queen of her own descent is hard to see especially when her father though arguably entitled does not use the title of King - a rather pointless title as head of a household which is all Rivendell is (in the expanded sense that Eomer for example when he describes his eored as men of his own household). And her elder brothers are living in Middle Earth for some of the time between Elrond's departure. Cirdan remains Lord of Havens until the last ship sails. Thranduil remains in Mirkwood. She may be revered for her beauty but she does not actually rule other than as Aragorn's wife.

I don't see that the draft has much force when it is of something Tolkien published in his own lifetime. And being heir of something isn't the same as inheriting something or even being heir to something. There has to be something to inherit. "His descendants became thus the heirs of the Numenorean realms, and of Luthien and the Elf-kingdoms of the West" seems to me to mean more that the lines of Luthien had been reconnected and enriched by the addition of the lines of Galadriel and Celeborn rather than that they were the literal heirs to the realms. Especially since the elf-realms were fading out. It would be like being Queen of Sealand.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The Elven colony in Ithilien is a good point, since it was formally within the scope of the renewed kingdom. However, there probably also were not very many - again, I imagine like a few dozens (not unlike the former Rangers of Ithilien). Let us not forget that the Fourth Age is the dominion of Men and the Elves gradually withdraw and vanish. Even Legolas did not stay forever.

Legolas stayed until the death of Aragorn. I would imagine the majority of his folk would stay at least as long as he did and maybe longer.

Celeborn, on the other hand, retained his own "sovereignity", that much is clear. Him and Thranduil ruled over the rest of Lórien&"East Lórien" (former Southern Mirkwood) and Mirkwood, respectively; and whoever was the queen of the Elven realms in Middle-Earth descended through Elrond was no concern to them, as it never would have been.

I am not sure this is the case. I think you underestimate the just how highly Luthien is held by the elves. She is the greatest, most powerful, most beautiful and noblest of all the elves. Just, because Elrond did not push a claim of kingship does not mean that they would not have accepted it. With their numbers dwindling and the desire to be under the protection of the Crown of Gondor there is no reason why the realms would not accept Arwen as their queen.

Why? They never, ever acknowledged any other authority before. Why would they suddenly do so now? And they still had "their" Thranduil. The fate of Lórien's Elves is also clear after Celeborn's departure from there. Let me quote:


Pretty clear, the picture of "diminish and depart". Celeborn's own story aside, the Wood-Elves seem to be the same as they always had been. The Avari, who originally refused to go to the West, had no part whatsoever in the Beleriand Wars, and remained "in their own sandbox" also for most of the latter ages (with the exception of e.g. the Last Alliance, and even then they followed their own leader, and not Gil-Galad's lead, which actually was their loss since they got butchered).

Yes, but no time frame is given about how long they take to diminish and depart. Legolas's colony was still around for the entirety of Aragorn's reign. Celeborn did not rule over Avari, becuase they had begun the journey west.

Elrond claimed to be the heir of Thingol, but he never desired the kingship. Arwen through Galadriel and Celeborn would also be the rightful heir of Lothlorien. When Celeborn departed to Rivendell, why would they not accept her as queen, since they would be under the protection of Gondor anyway.

I think this quote actually shows the true nature of Arwen's "queendom". My personal belief is that it actually shows this rather sad reminiscence of the past, pointing out that "hey, reader, please do not forget that Arwen was now, by right, on the same level, or the heir of, all those big names like Lúthien or Fingolfin or even more, since she combined all the bloodlines" (and all that plus the Númenorean bloodline via marriage, and all that also for her children). But this note for the reader is there because the reader might not have realised it from the looks of things, which are rather dull: something like at most hundred Elves (or maybe fifty) huddled together somewhere in Rivendell, another hundred possibly in Ithilien, plus a few wanderers, and that's about it. Yet exactly this is no more and no less but everything that remains of the former Elven Kingdoms of old.

I am sure there were more elves left than the 100 or so you wish to believe. Arwen was by her own right a great power. You seem to want to diminish Arwen's role rather than judge things objectively. The majority of elves in Middle Earth would not depart immediately after the end of the Third Age. Considering we know for a fact certain elvish realms still grew in size, a decent amount must have remained. There was enough in Ithilien to make it the fairest part of Gondor.

You also ignore that peace was not yet established in the Kingdom. Aragorn would often have to lead his armies to war with the east attacking from Rhun. The elves of Mirkwood and Lorien would be vulnerable to such attacks especially if there numbers were declining. They would likely in such a situation come under the protection of Reunited Empire, at least until they left.

Why am I quite certain of this being actually a remark rather reminding us of the noble descent of the currently poor Elven realms - if you look at the quote, it also contains a parallelism. "Heirs of Númenorean realms..." Well, Númenorean realms, as we certainly know, do not mean Númenor itself anymore! It means "the realm in exile", a realm reunited, to be sure, but still past its former glory. So likewise, the Elf-kingdoms of the West are in Beleriand... which does not exist anymore! Because, otherwise, what realms are there in the Third Age? Rivendell, which is, like, one valley? Possibly Grey Havens, which is one ghost town by now? And some Ithilien "colonies", which effectively means a large forest with one treetop house with three Elves per ten square miles? Geographically, Arwen would be the queen of even less than demographically. She might have ruled over, say, two to at most three hundred Elves, but geographically over what, ten square miles at most? One city+one valley? (Ithilien does not quite count, since it's the part of the Kingdom anyway, so it does not come through the "Elven" descent, as it also never had been an Elven realm before.)

This does not seem to be supported by the text at all. You want to be believe that enough ships to fair thousands of elves across the sea was built instantly? It took the Numenoreans over 50 years to migrate. Yet now you want to believe the elves did it instantly and all at the same time?

The more likely and logical answer I have already addressed. Arwen being the heir of Celeborn/Galadriel, the heir of Elrond and already a great Queen, would be able to grant protection to the elvish realms. In return they would recognise her sovereignty. Similar to the relation that Aragorn had with the King of Dale.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But once again, it's just a title. What does she have as an individual, being the Queen of Elves? This title does not seem to reflect anything other than her birth.

The elves had never been ones to accept leaders based on birth alone. I have pointed out how many an elvish leader, even exceptionally strong ones like Feanor and Galadriel had been rejected by their people. So Galadriel had more than just her birthright to hold them together.

Imagine Arwen is mysteriously sucked into a chamber-between-worlds. She is no one and has nothing except for what she has inside. She's not the Queen of Elves, the Queen of Gondor, the Evenstar, or anything like that. She is just her, without any titles. What does she have that is greater than what Galadriel has?

I never argued that Arwen was greater than Galadriel, but that she was great in her own right and accomplished many great things. People too often dismiss the role she played.

Sure. But that's still not the case with Arwen.

Arwen showed wisdom, patience and self sacrifice in her dealings with Aragorn. To give up immortality for the one she loved and in part to enrich Gondor was something important according to Tolkien and worthy of reward.

Fair enough. But in my opinion she did not have more arranging than anyone else. She might have been the one to put the idea into words, but she did not have the authority to do anything except for ask of it on Frodo's behalf.

Well by first seeing the flaw arranging for the Valar to be asked how did she not arrange it? She sought and got permission granted. Just because the Valar had the final say does not negate her role in anyway.

I say he was the most tempted, but also the strongest in will. Way stronger than the Ring, at least while he did not wear it himself.

I don't see anything to suggest he was more strongly tempted than Galadriel. He never contemplates stealing ring and never says he desired to use it. You are reading things that are not their in the text. The ring appeals more to those with certain flaws, most notably pride.

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

I think it´s pretty clear that she was able to read his mind.

Well you would be wrong, because this was impossible according to Tolkien. That apart Sauron was a greater power than Galadriel and even if she had the One Ring she would be unable to overcome him.

No one not even the Valar could read the mind of another 'equal being'. .....One can deduce much of their thought, from general comparisons leading to conclusions concerning the nature and tendencies of mind and thought..

Galadriel had a special gift of being able to read people from their previous actions and tendencies. She could not invade Sauron's mind in the way you think. As the article says this is impossible for even the greatest of the Valar to do to the weakest of the Hobbits. Let alone Galadriel trying to do it to a greater power than hers.

I think it is implied that she was actually able to read some parts of his mind. I imagine that it was not a easy procedure and that she has to stop at one point to prevent that he is able to see too much of her thoght or her thoghts at all.

Reading minds seems to be her speciality.

There is the debate in why Galadriel is considers the greatest of the Noldor, but many people don´t know why, or in what she is good at, to justify that claim.

With Feanor it´s easy but maybe Galadriel was the best in mind reading, so that she was able to do it with Sauron, even if that is actually not possible (I don´t remember the Osanwer Kenta text too well at this point).

As for mind reading....the essay on Osanwe-kenta details the limitations there. It is correct that no being can really read another's mind, but if you aren't actively shielding (so to speak) you may be unintentionally broadcasting your thoughts. Maybe she was strong enough to break his firewall so to speak.

Galadriel was weaker than Sauron by such a great margin, that even if she took the One Ring she could not defeat him. Sauron is no fool and would not be broadcasting his thoughts out like you wish to imagine. Galadriel had great deductive skills and given Sauron's actions both past and present could predict the way he was going to act. He though, being blinded by evil could not predict the same about her.

And there are far more examples of mind reading, in the end between Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and Ceeborn I believe and of course when she was reading the minds of the company.

But I really don´t think that she was knowing his mind figuratively.

Again you are mistaken. Elves could broadcast their thoughts only if they intended to communicate them. It's not just elves, but the Numenoreans had the a similar ability.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Where is any evidence that Eldarion inherits "the elvish lands" or Arwen is recognised as Queen by any remaining elves? I can find the first sentence in my LOTR but not the second. And having it on Kindle I have been able to search key words.

The first sentence on it's own is hardly more substantial than Frodo naming Mrs Maggot a Queen. She does not rule. When Aragorn gives up his life it is Eldarion who rules. How she could become Queen of her own descent is hard to see especially when her father though arguably entitled does not use the title of King - a rather pointless title as head of a household which is all Rivendell is (in the expanded sense that Eomer for example when he describes his eored as men of his own household). And her elder brothers are living in Middle Earth for some of the time between Elrond's departure. Cirdan remains Lord of Havens until the last ship sails. Thranduil remains in Mirkwood. She may be revered for her beauty but she does not actually rule other than as Aragorn's wife.

I don't see that the draft has much force when it is of something Tolkien published in his own lifetime. And being heir of something isn't the same as inheriting something or even being heir to something. There has to be something to inherit. "His descendants became thus the heirs of the Numenorean realms, and of Luthien and the Elf-kingdoms of the West" seems to me to mean more that the lines of Luthien had been reconnected and enriched by the addition of the lines of Galadriel and Celeborn rather than that they were the literal heirs to the realms. Especially since the elf-realms were fading out. It would be like being Queen of Sealand.

I don't agree at all with your interpretation that it is similar to what Frodo calls Mrs Maggot. Arwen was a real Queen of men and put alongside her title is that she was Queen of Elves too.

Arwen had a legitimate claim to many of the Elven Lands.

As for the inheritance the text shows it is in relation to the lands that Eldarion and his heirs ruled over with a legitimate claim. Showing that he had a right to the lands he ruled.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by cellurdur:

As for the inheritance the text shows it is in relation to the lands that Eldarion and his heirs ruled over with a legitimate claim. Showing that he had a right to the lands he ruled.

I'm also curious as to where in the text this second quote appears. Like Mithalwen, I can find the first sentence, but not the second.

[elbenprincess]

Elves could broadcast their thoughts only if they intended to communicate them

Yes if they intended, Sauron surely didn´t intended that, but what if she was able to do it by force? Her power coupled with her ring? Was Sauron inhernetly that strong at the time, I rather think it was his army that made him so strong.
Still Galadriel was able to read the minds of the fellowship and they didn´t intended that, they not even would know how this works.

I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!'

Why would he try to see her thought if he would´t be aware of Galadriels mindreading? He wants to see her thought, they struggle, but he isn´t able to do but she is.

One time she was able to win in a struggle with him too, when Eorl rode near Lorien.

"When they passed Dol Guldur in Mirkwood - where Sauron dwelled in secret - a darkness emanated from the fortress, and Eorl turned westward to avoid it. But then a white mist came from the woods of Lothlorien that stood across the River from Dol Guldur, and the Riders were hidden and continued safely on their way and, under the protection of the mist, apparently made the journey unwearyingly at an extraordinary rate of speed. "

Apparently Galadriel was able to conquer Saurons shadow, so why not able to read his thoughts?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by radagastly

Originally posted by cellurdur:


I'm also curious as to where in the text this second quote appears. Like Mithalwen, I can find the first sentence, but not the second.

Which quote do you have in mind? It can be found in the People's of Middle Earth, which provide as a lot of details about how Tolkien developed the Appendixes.

These statements do not make the LOTR Appendix and are not fully cannon, but Arwen's role as Queen of Elves is retained. The statements here give some indication of what Tolkien intended by that title.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I am not sure this is the case. I think you underestimate the just how highly Luthien is held by the elves. She is the greatest, most powerful, most beautiful and noblest of all the elves. Just, because Elrond did not push a claim of kingship does not mean that they would not have accepted it. With their numbers dwindling and the desire to be under the protection of the Crown of Gondor there is no reason why the realms would not accept Arwen as their queen.

See what I quoted there. The Wood-Elves would not have accepted Arwen as their queen simply because they did not accept anyone before. Not even Lúthien, for that matter. Lúthien, for the Avari, was some random elf behind the mountains in the First Age. Even for many of the Elves in Beleriand, there was no reason to flock to the small kingdom in Ossiriand after Lúthien and Beren had returned there briefly. No, we are told plainly, and I quote once again, the whole passage this time (emphasises mine):

Thranduil took all the northern region as far as the mountains that rise in the forest for his realm; and Celeborn took the southern wood below the Narrows, and named it East Lórien; all the wide forest between was given to the Beornings and the Woodmen. But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond. In the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled, but in Lórien there lingered sadly only a few of its former people, and there was no longer light or song in Caras Galadhon.

It is clear that the Wood-Elves remained under Thranduil and were left to themselves, just as they always had been. I think you that at least that is pretty clear, completely objectively, also taking into account the behavior of the Avari in the past ages. Likewise, if you read in the Unfinished Tales "of Galadriel and Celeborn", there is pretty lengthy debate about how the Wood-Elves, also in Lórien, were not particularly inclined to accept "foreigners" and how Celeborn and Galadriel, out of respect, never really took the title of "King and Queen", but simply did what they had to, and were content with whatever respect the Elves gave them. Therefore, there is really no "inherited claim" for Lórien through Galadriel. Celeborn kept his post as the Lord of Galadhrim until a couple of years after Galadriel's departure, as we read, and after that, there likely was no other external ruler in Lórien. If Arwen came and claimed rulership over Lórien, it would likely have been mentioned in the text above, right? She would likely have - using your arguments, having the beauty of Lúthien which you said was so inspiring for all the Elves - cheered up the remaining Elves. Instead, we only read about sad remaining "few" Elves who are left in their solitude and gloom (and possibly eventually depart for the West).

Elrond claimed to be the heir of Thingol, but he never desired the kingship. Arwen through Galadriel and Celeborn would also be the rightful heir of Lothlorien. When Celeborn departed to Rivendell, why would they not accept her as queen, since they would be under the protection of Gondor anyway.

As for the first part, see above. The claim of Lórien is absolutely out of question if you read "Of Celeborn and Galadriel" in the UT. As for the second part, there was nothing about Lórien being a part of the kingdom. Certainly not part of the kingdom of Gondor&Rohan reunited!

I am sure there were more elves left than the 100 or so you wish to believe.

Arwen was by her own right a great power. You seem to want to diminish Arwen's role rather than judge things objectively.

Nope, let's make it clear. This has nothing to do with Arwen or my perception of her. I certainly do not want to diminish her role. As for her role as the Queen of the reunited kingdom, I fully accept all of that. As for her personal powers or abilities, that is completely out of the scope of discussion for me, it has nothing to do with her claims of rulership or whatnot. I also fully accept the fact that, by bloodline, she had the right to all the Elven kingdoms formed by the Sindar/Teleri/Noldor and their descendants. What I am saying is that with all her right as being the last in the line of the Elven kings in Middle-Earth, the problem is that there were really no realms to rule. And no Elves to rule. The age of Elves was gone. They were not active in the world's affairs anyway, they had not been already for some time except for a random surge here and there. You certainly are aware that you cannot compare Arwen ruling over the remnants of Elves from Rivendell etc with the mighty kingdoms of the sons of Feanor, or Fingolfin, Finrod, Thingol, etc etc.

The majority of elves in Middle Earth would not depart immediately after the end of the Third Age.

No, of course not. It took some years. But let's not forget that Elves had begun their departure already much much earlier, they had been leaving throughout the Third Age, and faster so around the time of the War of the Ring (that's what even the Hobbits notice, as we read in the first chapters of LotR). So there were pretty few Elves at the beginning of the Fourth Age, and still leaving. Not arriving anymore. Of course. And...

Considering we know for a fact certain elvish realms still grew in size, a decent amount must have remained. There was enough in Ithilien to make it the fairest part of Gondor.

What? Elven realms growing in size? In Fourth Age? Already in Third they were diminishing, heck, even in the Second already, so can you supply a quote to this? The only thing changing was the fact that Ithilien and Mirkwood was freed from the oppression of the Enemy, so the Elves could migrate there and wander around some new woods. If that's what you mean, then okay, but it certainly is not any "expansion", because they would leave half-empty woods behind them in their former homes.

You also ignore that peace was not yet established in the Kingdom. Aragorn would often have to lead his armies to war with the east attacking from Rhun. The elves of Mirkwood and Lorien would be vulnerable to such attacks especially if there numbers were declining. They would likely in such a situation come under the protection of Reunited Empire, at least until they left.

Really? This sounds rather fabricated to me. Because what we hear is:

Originally Posted by RotK, The Steward and the King

And the King pardoned the Easterlings that had given themselves up, and sent them away free, and he made peace with the peoples of Harad; and the slaves of Mordor he released and gave to them all the lands about Lake Núrnen to be their own.

I think Elessar had pretty good times, given diplomatic efforts and all that. And as for the Elves, nobody would attack Lórien, for sure (not from such far away, nobody did it anyway throughout ages, even when the Easterlings attacked Calenardhon), since it was across the river and too far, but neither Mirkwood. First, why would anybody attack forest-Elves in forest which is not even good for conquering (seriously, why would you conquer a forest?). Second, once again pointing to the quote above, "in the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled" says it all, I think.

You accused me of not considering facts objectively, but here you are fabricating arguments. So do not do that if we want to remain on objective basis.

This does not seem to be supported by the text at all. You want to be believe that enough ships to fair thousands of elves across the sea was built instantly? It took the Numenoreans over 50 years to migrate. Yet now you want to believe the elves did it instantly and all at the same time?

Once again, just repeating what I already said in this post, the Elves had been migrating throughout the Third Age, in larger numbers before the War of the Ring. And of course not instantly, but there were years. Aragorn and Arwen ruled for what, 120 years? Even if you had one ship leaving per year, and you'd have, okay, completely guessing now, even if I say 30 Elves per ship (which is probably much less than there would be), you'd have 1500 Elves gone during 50 years. And that is already about as much as there would have been in Middle-Earth by that point, I say. Likely, it would of course be much faster.

Arwen had a legitimate claim to many of the Elven Lands.

"Many" is what? Once again: Rivendell. And??? Grey Havens, possibly? (They were probably empty soon, but even if not, nothing much there.) Ithilien, though that'd be via Aragorn, not via her Elven heritage, since the Elves there were Wood-Elves and Ithilien of course was never an Elven kingdom before. That's it. Lórien - not, Mirkwood - certainly not. And even if you managed to argue for Lórien, it is not "many" Elven lands. It is one valley, one city, and okay, Lórien could be considered a "land" in its full sense. But given that Arwen did not have claim to it (or: did not claim it, as it seems evident from the text), anyway...

The "Elven lands" had been sunk for over two Ages by the time Arwen became the Queen.

[elbenprincess]

Simply, because Sauron was much more powerful then Galadriel and to do so was impossible for even the Valar to do. Tolkien explains what could be done in detail.

Morgoth was more powerful than Fingolfin and still was wounded by him, he was more powerful than Luthien and still was put to sleep by her so why is it so unbelievable that Galadriel could read some of his thoughts? That doesn´t mean that she was more powerful than him in generel, just that she had an edge oder him in these matter perhaps.

Even among the elven ring holders, Elrond is the most likely to be able to defeat Sauron, not Galadriel in a personal confrontation.

That is NOT true!!! I guess you assume that because of that:

it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter.

That is out of context, that is the full quote:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated.

Both, Galadriel and Elrond thought of themself that they could master the ring, especially Elrond, that was due to the power of the ring. Only Gandalf could master it.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

See what I quoted there. The Wood-Elves would not have accepted Arwen as their queen simply because they did not accept anyone before. Not even Lúthien, for that matter. Lúthien, for the Avari, was some random elf behind the mountains in the First Age. Even for many of the Elves in Beleriand, there was no reason to flock to the small kingdom in Ossiriand after Lúthien and Beren had returned there briefly. No, we are told plainly, and I quote once again, the whole passage this time (emphasises mine):

A lot of the wood elves were made up of Sindar and Nandor elves, all of whom excepted the Lordship of Thingol.

Luthien never tried to claim any form of queenship. Even after the death of Thingol she did not try and claim the kingdom of Doriath. She instead left it for Dior.

It is clear that the Wood-Elves remained under Thranduil and were left to themselves, just as they always had been. I think you that at least that is pretty clear, completely objectively, also taking into account the behavior of the Avari in the past ages. Likewise, if you read in the Unfinished Tales "of Galadriel and Celeborn", there is pretty lengthy debate about how the Wood-Elves, also in Lórien, were not particularly inclined to accept "foreigners" and how Celeborn and Galadriel, out of respect, never really took the title of "King and Queen", but simply did what they had to, and were content with whatever respect the Elves gave them. Therefore, there is really no "inherited claim" for Lórien through Galadriel. Celeborn kept his post as the Lord of Galadhrim until a couple of years after Galadriel's departure, as we read, and after that, there likely was no other external ruler in Lórien. If Arwen came and claimed rulership over Lórien, it would likely have been mentioned in the text above, right? She would likely have - using your arguments, having the beauty of Lúthien which you said was so inspiring for all the Elves - cheered up the remaining Elves. Instead, we only read about sad remaining "few" Elves who are left in their solitude and gloom (and possibly eventually depart for the West).

Arwen was not a foreigner. She was the granddaughter of the their former Lords and had spent lived among them.

As for Thranduil, he was Sindar by origin and under Thingol. Why wouldn't he accept the heir of Thingol if she proved herself a capable leader? He had a far closer relationship with men than most other elves at the time.

To claim there was just a few elves defeats the purpose of Arwen being their Queen. What is the point of being Queen of a small group? Even the Kings of Arthedain gave up the title king, though they would have had numbers in the 100. Why would Arwen take it if there were so few elves left to accept her?

As for the first part, see above. The claim of Lórien is absolutely out of question if you read "Of Celeborn and Galadriel" in the UT. As for the second part, there was nothing about Lórien being a part of the kingdom. Certainly not part of the kingdom of Gondor&Rohan reunited!

If you read Tolkien's work you would see Aragorn is Lord of the West and held as leader of a confederation made up of several kingdoms.


Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a ‘market-garden job’ as you term it.


Then Bard II, Brand's son, became king in the Dale, and Thorin III Stonehelm, Dain's son, became the king under the mountain. They sent their ambassadors to the crowning of Elessar and their realms remained ever after, as long as they lasted, in friendship, with Gondor, and they under the crown and the protection of the King of the West.

Here we see Aragorn soon rules over an empire with other kings under even Dain and Bard excepting his protection. It is not hard to believe that Thrandiul and other elves would come to a similar agreement like Thorin, especially with the threats from the East.

I am sure there were more elves left than the 100 or so you wish to believe.
Nope, let's make it clear. This has nothing to do with Arwen or my perception of her. I certainly do not want to diminish her role. As for her role as the Queen of the reunited kingdom, I fully accept all of that. As for her personal powers or abilities, that is completely out of the scope of discussion for me, it has nothing to do with her claims of rulership or whatnot. I also fully accept the fact that, by bloodline, she had the right to all the Elven kingdoms formed by the Sindar/Teleri/Noldor and their descendants. What I am saying is that with all her right as being the last in the line of the Elven kings in Middle-Earth, the problem is that there were really no realms to rule. And no Elves to rule. The age of Elves was gone. They were not active in the world's affairs anyway, they had not been already for some time except for a random surge here and there. You certainly are aware that you cannot compare Arwen ruling over the remnants of Elves from Rivendell etc with the mighty kingdoms of the sons of Feanor, or Fingolfin, Finrod, Thingol, etc etc.

Your problem is that you seem to be under the perception that thousands of elves could leave ME instantly. Where were the ships to take them? Even if they wished to leave straight away such a migration would take tens of years and by all accounts they did not want to leave immediately.

Aragorn we are told leads a confederation of united allies and many of them are under his crown. Stands to reason the Elves too would accept his protection and kingship. Whilst there is no reason to assume all the elves had left just 120 years after the ring was destroyed.

No, of course not. It took some years. But let's not forget that Elves had begun their departure already much much earlier, they had been leaving throughout the Third Age, and faster so around the time of the War of the Ring (that's what even the Hobbits notice, as we read in the first chapters of LotR). So there were pretty few Elves at the beginning of the Fourth Age, and still leaving. Not arriving anymore. Of course. And...

No there was still thousands of elves in Mirkwood. Without taking his full force, Thranduil can take 1000 elvish warriors to the battle of five armies. That alone means the population numbered in their thousands.

Then there is the population in Lorien, which seemed equally as numerous. But we learn these people soon leave.

What? Elven realms growing in size? In Fourth Age? Already in Third they were diminishing, heck, even in the Second already, so can you supply a quote to this? The only thing changing was the fact that Ithilien and Mirkwood was freed from the oppression of the Enemy, so the Elves could migrate there and wander around some new woods. If that's what you mean, then okay, but it certainly is not any "expansion", because they would leave half-empty woods behind them in their former homes.

If they were leaving half the woods empty it would hardly be an expansion and worth moving. We are told they actually remain largely untroubled.

Really? This sounds rather fabricated to me. Because what we hear is:
I think Elessar had pretty good times, given diplomatic efforts and all that. And as for the Elves, nobody would attack Lórien, for sure (not from such far away, nobody did it anyway throughout ages, even when the Easterlings attacked Calenardhon), since it was across the river and too far, but neither Mirkwood. First, why would anybody attack forest-Elves in forest which is not even good for conquering (seriously, why would you conquer a forest?). Second, once again pointing to the quote above, "in the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled" says it all, I think.

I don't think the untroubled line was talking about war. There was still danger from orcs, which you seem to have dismissed.

Once again, just repeating what I already said in this post, the Elves had been migrating throughout the Third Age, in larger numbers before the War of the Ring. And of course not instantly, but there were years. Aragorn and Arwen ruled for what, 120 years? Even if you had one ship leaving per year, and you'd have, okay, completely guessing now, even if I say 30 Elves per ship (which is probably much less than there would be), you'd have 1500 Elves gone during 50 years. And that is already about as much as there would have been in Middle-Earth by that point, I say. Likely, it would of course be much faster.

Why would they leave when we are told that whilst the Silvan folk of Lorien were leaving, the elves of Mirkwood extended their kingdom and had a colony in Ithilien? At the time of Hobbit a conservative estimate has the Elvish population of Mirkwood at around 5000.

"Many" is what? Once again: Rivendell. And??? Grey Havens, possibly? (They were probably empty soon, but even if not, nothing much there.) Ithilien, though that'd be via Aragorn, not via her Elven heritage, since the Elves there were Wood-Elves and Ithilien of course was never an Elven kingdom before. That's it. Lórien - not, Mirkwood - certainly not. And even if you managed to argue for Lórien, it is not "many" Elven lands. It is one valley, one city, and okay, Lórien could be considered a "land" in its full sense. But given that Arwen did not have claim to it (or: did not claim it, as it seems evident from the text), anyway...

The "Elven lands" had been sunk for over two Ages by the time Arwen became the Queen.

Many would be all of Lindon and Eregion since she was the only heir of the Noldor left. Have you actually seen the size of the Lindon etc? Even if it was sparsely populated it was land she had rights to.

Again you only focus on how Aragorn was King of Arnor and Gondor, but he was Lord of the West and had many lands under his protection and crown. Tolkien outright tells us he was an Imperial Power. Arwen is called Queen of Elves. Considering both Dale and The Lonely Mountain accept Aragorn's authority, I fail to see how hard it is to believe so did the remaining elves. Especially since we are again explicitly told she was Queen of Elves and Men.