[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I meant that that scene seems to pass the Bechdal Test.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Tolkien hits it with Melian and Galadriel, if not in LOTR.

My bad! I misread that as a reference simply to the two characters and not to the brief descriptions of their meetings in The Silm. But let's see how the actual "scenes" do hold up.

Originally Posted by The Bechdal test

1. It has to have at least two women in it,
2. who talk to each other,
3. about something besides a man.

Originally Posted by Of the Return of the Noldar

Galadriel his sister went not with him to Nargothrond, for in Doriath dwelt Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol, and there was great love between them. Therefore she remained in the Hidden Kingdom, and abode with Melian, and of her learned great lore and wisdom concerning Middle-earth.

This does not satisfy the test, to my mind, for several reasons. First of all, we do not have a real scene with conversation or dialogue between the two women. We have a report of their relationship. Thus, their relationship is filtered by the narrator. Second, the passage highlights Galadriel's reason for staying in Doriath--the great love between her and Celeborn. Nor is there much characterisation of the two women. So, nope, this episode does not pass the test.

Originally Posted by Of the Noldor in Beleriand

And at times Melian and Galadriel would speak together of Valinor and the bliss of of old; but beyond the dark hour of the death of the Trees Galadriel would not go, but ever fell silent. And on a time Melian said, " There is some woe that lies upon you and your kin. That I can see in you, but all else is hidden from me; for by no vision or thought can I perceive anything that passed or passes in the West: a shadow lies over all the land of Aman, and reaches far out over the sea. Why will you not tell me more?"
"For that woe is past," said Galadriel; "and I would take what joy is here left, untrubled by memory. And maybe there is woe enough yet to come, though still hope may seem bright."
Then Melian looked in her eyes, and said: "I believe not that the Noldor came forth as messengers of the Valar, as was said at first: not though they came in the very hour of our need. For they speak never of the Valar, nor have their high lords brought any message to Thingol, whether from Manwe, or Ulmo, or even from Olwe the King's brother, and his own folk went over the sea. For what cause, Galadriel, were the high people of the Noldor driven forth as exiles from Aman? Or what evil lies on the sons of Feanor that they are so haughty and so fell? Do I not strike near the truth?"
"Near," said Galadriel; "save that we were not driven forth, but came of our own will, and against that of the Valar. And through great peril and in despite of the Valar for this purpose we came to take vengeance upon Morgoth, and regain what he stole."
Then Galadriel spoke to Melian of the Silmarils, and of the slaying of King Finwe at Formenos; but still she said no word of the Oath, nor of the Kinslaying, nor of the burning of the ships at Losgar. But Melian said: "Now much you tell me, and yet more I perceive. A darkness you would cast over the long road from Tirion, but I see evil there, which Thingol should learn for his guidance."
"Maybe," said Galadriel; "but not of me."
And Melian then spoke no more of these matters with Galadriel; but she told King Thingol all that she had heard of the Silmarils.

Now this seems closer to the test! We have a bit of conversation between the women, even if it falls into report about the Silmarils. We can gather a bit more of motivation or characterisation here as well, with Galadriel's reticence to speak all and Melian's subtle prompting.

Does this present the scene I had spoken of, >>>Now, if The Silm had given us an extended passage where the two--Galadriel and Melian--discuss the fate of the world, that would have been something which would have demonstrated their intellect and wisdom. But we don't get that. Mostly we are told of their wise decisions or thought rather than seeing how they negotiate the correct stance.<<< ?

Well, yes, it does appear that Melian learns something significant from this conversation. Yet can we say that essentially Melian's role is to be almost Thingol's spy here? She reports it to Thingol, so that the entire conversation serves Thingol's needs, precedes the report of a spreading rumour about the Noldor, and in fact antagonises the King against the visiting Finrod. The events in the chapter become an explanation for the decline of one language and the supremacy of another. The women are small potatoes in that, no matter how ironic their role in the events may be.

And of these effects neither Galadriel nor Melian have any control. They are passive conveyors of details rather than characters with full agency. They are women negotiating their position within the patriarchy and as such I think that is a kind of representation. But they are still discussing men--the haughty and fell nature of the sons of Feanor and Thingol's need for guidance.

This is indeed far closer than anything in LotR or TH, but the women are still passive and inadvertent bearers of story details that really are about the men in their lives. Not quite what I had in mind, but I might be too strict in my interpretation of the Test.

Didn't Galadriel maintain her "realm" in a very similar fashion, with the power of Nenya? She seemed to have had some success. Notice in each case it is the female who ultimately defends the home, despite armed might being in the hands of the males.

Yet it is a stereotypical defense and unrelated to the Bechdal Test, which, as Agan has pointed out:

Originally Posted by Agan

and it doesn't work to determine a film's feminism value, but rather it brings attention to how underrepresented women are.

The feminist values of the representation are indeed another topic to which I must not stray, however much I dallied around them in the previous post.

Interesting. How would you characterize Melian's dealings with another mum, Morwen?

We aren't given any specific scenes of Melian's dealings with Morwen, are we? We are told that Morwen is "fey" and "distraught" and refuses the counsel of Melian but again, that is reported narrative and not an actual conversation. And it would have been about Turin anyway.; There really isn't enough material to generate any kind of generalisation about how Melian treated motherhood.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Tolkien hits it with Melian and Galadriel, if not in LOTR, and to me that alone sets him above PJ's observed work in the matter.

You are right to seek in The Silm for some of Tolkien's representations of strong women; what I would have liked to have seen is Haleth leading her people in more detail, because there is a woman who is sole leader, no consort. However, we do have to remember that PJ has but LotR and TH to work with. I don't think he has access to The Silm, so that all he has to work with are the fewer representations in LotR and TH; I'm not sure how much of the Appendices he can touch at length.

Would that be an overreaction on the part of PJ, akin to warrior-princess Arwen? As in the only way to show power in a woman is physical demonstrations?

I like Agan's reply to Mithalwen about power in protagonists in an action flick. But I also think it was a mistake to change Arwen's character. Personally, I also think PJ likes to go with the big boom, as that is a large part , if not the main part, of action flicks, which are as much an influence on his film-making as Tolkien, if not more.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Is PJ really subtle enough for that to be the case?

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't think it's really a joke.

lol, But he does favour fairly rank forms of humour in inappropriate places.

Originally Posted by Agan

I'm bothered by her taste in men.

Oh, no question!

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I do mind her being a woman or at least having a woman imposed on a book character - though from the barrel scenes and the casting we have clearly lost my favourite scene of Galion getting sozzled with the captain of the guard.

Now that we shall have to wait to see. Would PJ dare show a Marion Ravenwood?

And I do believe this is the longest post I've made in ever so long.