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#1 | |||||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#2 | |||||||||||||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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Does this present the scene I had spoken of, >>>Now, if The Silm had given us an extended passage where the two--Galadriel and Melian--discuss the fate of the world, that would have been something which would have demonstrated their intellect and wisdom. But we don't get that. Mostly we are told of their wise decisions or thought rather than seeing how they negotiate the correct stance.<<< ? Well, yes, it does appear that Melian learns something significant from this conversation. Yet can we say that essentially Melian's role is to be almost Thingol's spy here? She reports it to Thingol, so that the entire conversation serves Thingol's needs, precedes the report of a spreading rumour about the Noldor, and in fact antagonises the King against the visiting Finrod. The events in the chapter become an explanation for the decline of one language and the supremacy of another. The women are small potatoes in that, no matter how ironic their role in the events may be. And of these effects neither Galadriel nor Melian have any control. They are passive conveyors of details rather than characters with full agency. They are women negotiating their position within the patriarchy and as such I think that is a kind of representation. But they are still discussing men--the haughty and fell nature of the sons of Feanor and Thingol's need for guidance. This is indeed far closer than anything in LotR or TH, but the women are still passive and inadvertent bearers of story details that really are about the men in their lives. Not quite what I had in mind, but I might be too strict in my interpretation of the Test. Quote:
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And I do believe this is the longest post I've made in ever so long.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bêthberry; 06-08-2013 at 07:06 AM. Reason: coding *sigh* |
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#3 | |||
Wisest of the Noldor
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On the other hand– Quote:
See, one hears a lot about the “the need for strong female characters”, but obviously it’s a bit more complicated than that when, even in such a small group, we can’t seem to reach any real agreement about what the phrase means in the first place. (I also find it to be of some concern how restrictive the various criteria are– male characters are always given a lot more leeway.) For my part I’d be reasonably satisfied if this Tauriel’s portrayal doesn’t turn out downright embarrassing– and I think that has more to do with issues other than such relatively abstract ones. Will she get any real characterisation at all, or just be a cardboard cutout? Will she spout allegedly hilarious one-liners? Will her scenes feature endless cheesecake shots? Will we be subjected to the threatened Elf/Dwarf romance? ...Will she *really* look this silly? (“Hmmn... looks like the Costume Department's already over-budget, so we’ll just hire an elf-ranger outfit from Partyland down the road. I’m sure no-one’ll notice...")
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#4 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
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Meh, I probably shouldn't even be posting here, as I haven't seen AUJ, and I have no plans to watch DOS.
I'll just leave off by saying that if Tolkien fails in his presentation of what one perceives as a "strong" female character, I am not at all confident that the movies, geared as they are toward mass modern audience appeal, will accomplish that better.
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#5 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,461
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Are male characters only strong if they bear arms? Why not have a woman ruler of Laketown? Surely because she would be older and morally ambiguous and wouldn't be hawt enough for the desired demographic. Don't be under any illusion that Tauriel is there for the girls. If there had been a genuine place for a female role model the role wouldn't have changed with the availability of the actress.
I don't get the problem with the Girdle of Melian. We aren't talking about Spanx. If you take the verb formof gird it has rather more positive associations with Knighthood which incidentally I think the gifts in Lorien to Boromir and the younger hobbits are more significant than they may fiirst appear (I am very slowly writing a paper on this so I will spare you further ramblings). Idrll is perhaps the one female character who is unreservedly admirable and it is her wisdom and preparedness that save some of her people and without which even the valour of Glorfindel et all would have been futile. Finally I reject the suggestion that objecting to Tauriel makes me somehow anti feminist. I care about the story not the gender of the protagonists.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#6 | ||||
Woman of Secret Shadow
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: in hollow halls beneath the fells
Posts: 4,511
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Ditto.
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He bit me, and I was not gentle. |
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#7 | ||
Wisest of the Noldor
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Hmmn. Seems I’ve got myself out on a limb here. Ah well.
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#8 | |||||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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I have a philosophical objection to the idea that one can barricade or wall oneself in from danger or evil. I know this was well the case with many medieval walled cities and indeed with many 'gated' communities in the US these days. I believe that action simply exacerbates the social problems. The moment we claim some places are bad, we also fall prey to treating everyone there as bad and start expecting trouble. And vice versa, everyone in a good place as good. It's not a concept that resolves the difficulties but which makes rapproachment more difficult. So it is hard for me to see this as a positive activity and to regard the character who does it as a champion. There is in LotR--well, I think so, anyway--some suggestion that Galadriel's attempt to hold back time in Lorien was a mistake. Quote:
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![]() Yes, that's what I meant. The conversation is more a plot device that an expose or exploration of their characters. Quote:
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bêthberry; 06-08-2013 at 10:53 AM. |
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#9 | ||
Dead Serious
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Also, a brief hiccup of a thought: Quote:
...they [all good folk] cannot stop Morgoth, only escape from him, which reads rather like the entire Silmarillion in microcosm--though Túrin's story, at least, suggest that the flight is ultimately impossible (and Gandalf says as much about the recurring waves of evil). And this makes me think about the chief contrast between Idril and Lúthien--or is it their point of convergence?--namely that she does the complete opposite of her mother: where Melian guards against Morgoth, she goes on the attack. Not, obviously, in a military manner, but certainly in a proactive one.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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