Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf
But this statement is undoubtedly true. To claim otherwise would be the opposide of "degrading".
|
I never claimed it was wrong. All I meant the help that Sam provided doesn't degrade the struggle that Frodo did. Most of the readers tend to ignore this. They in order to think or say "Frodo wouldn't have gotten that far without Sam" completly overlook the battle Frodo fought and Sam didn't. I don't think it's really appropriate to do so and ignore Frodo like this.
Quote:
|
This statement is true aswell.
|
Again, I didn't mean it to be wrong. But this one, too, doesn't prove Gollum
ever struggled as much Frodo did. So, for Gollum and his efforts, ignoring Frodo is absolute wrong. The problem is, I think, most people go for the success. They hardly notice the struggle of an individual. This is how the world works. And as
Brain Games says, we see things the way we are used to, so we do see things this way. What majority says or thinks is not often true.
Quote:
I don0…7t know if it is the "complete opposite". I would rather say that both might be true. Frodo feels responsible for the fate of the ring. Wishing not to depart from the ring is just the other side of the coin. I guess they both mark the end of a spectrum.
Quote:
But how does that prove Frodo's decision of taking the Ring to Mordor was not heroic or isn't worth the praise he gets from the characters? I did not get the impression of this until I saw others say so. I may be wrong in my thinking, but I am sure it wasn't of selfish motive as many suggest.
Quote:
|
Again, there is truth in this statement. However, I wouldn0…7t argue that his actions regarding Gollum are solely motivated by selfishness. He feels compassion towards Gollum. But in order to feel this kind of sympathy there has to be some kind of self-reference! So called selfishness doesn0…7t have to be a bad thing.
|
It's an impression many get from the movies, I think. In the book, at the end of FOTR, Frodo tells Sam he doesn't hope he'll see others again. This suggested he wasn't having any kind of hopes for himself to survive. If so, why would he think of beyond that? There's no doubt of the self-reference thing. He sees himself as Gollum and understands what Gollum has been through. This makes him pity Gollum, not out of selfish reasons but rather of understanding a "human" or human nature.
Quote:
|
As I said before, his failure is a sign of weakness, and pride aswell. But they are not personal flaws of his character per se, but structural, inherent character traits of all persons.
|
I wonder, if they are not his personal flaws, why he needs to be blamed in such manner. What of those who refused to fight with the Ring? Are they bigger failures than Frodo? No, because they fought. So why one has to doubt Frodo's devotion for his quest and his intentions. I can't see how the "pride" was the reason of his failure. Would you please elaborate?
|
Hm, I don't see the problem here. Frodo left ME because he felt a kind of unrest which could not be healed there. His wish to live a life without this pain might be inspired by self interest, but I wouldn't condemn him for this.
|
I forgot to mention something else: "He abandoned Sam to enjoy bliss in UL." This statement is completly wrong. IIRC, Professor Tolkien nowhere mentions "Frodo wanted healing", he says, "Frodo needed healing." Frodo went to UL not only because he wanted to, but also because if he didn't Sam would be "torn in two". The reason Frodo left can't be only for his own welfare but that of Sam's too. I hope I haven't confused you now. I tried to be as clear as possible.