Gandalf in the 2nd Millennium of the Third Age

[CSteefel]

In the Istari in the Unfinished Tales Tolkien says of Gandalf that

he is seldom mentioned in any annals or records during the second millennium of the Third Age

but in fact I cannot find anything on him during that period. Tolkien goes on to suggest that

Probably he wandered long (in various guises), engaged not in deeds and events but in exploring the hearts of Elves and Men who had been and might still be expected to be opposed to Sauron.

Earlier in the same tale, Tolkien says that Gandalf

went to and fro in the Westlands from Gondor to Angmar, and Lindon to Lorien...

which presents the new (to me) information that somehow Gandalf had visited Angmar. It seems reasonable that if he did so, this was done in the Second Millennium when the Witch King was there. It also telling that he apparently went to and fro in "various guises", which suggests to me the possibility that he was actually in disguise (and this may have been how he was able to enter Dol Goldur twice).

The suggestion of disguises also has me thinking of Aragorn in the service of Thengel and Ecthelion. It is not clear where Aragorn came up with the idea of going in disguise, but later discussion in the Palantiri suggests that perhaps this had to do with the sensitivity to a (eventual) pretender to the throne, at least in Gondor. It is possible that Gandalf suggested this course of action to Aragorn, since the two met shortly before Aragorn departed on his twenty year "errantries". My thoughts are that perhaps Gandalf took this idea from his own role in the Second Millennium.

What role or guise he might have had in this period is not clear, but one thought was that Malbeth the Seer was in fact Gandalf. Any arguments for or against this?

[Fingolfin II]

Hmm...off the top of my head I think I recall Malbeth collapsing and dying after making the prophecy about the Dead and the one who can command them? Sorry, I haven't read the books for a long time and don't have them on me at the moment, so that's the best argument I can offer up against Gandalf being Malbeth the Seer. An interesting theory though, I've never heard it before and who knows, maybe there are arguments that can lend credence to it. However, I personally doubt it.

You raise an interesting point about what Gandalf was doing throughout that 'quieter' period. I would've loved to see the wily old wizard at work using his Ring and his natural charisma to stir up hope in the hearts of Elves and Men again- a pity Tolkien never expounded upon this (except for the conversation between Gandalf and Thorin).

[Gordis]

It is a new idea indeed that Malbeth may have been Gandalf. I think we know next to nothing about Malbeth, save that he was present in Fornost at Ardedui's birth, had easy access to the King and was much respected.
Yet, the noble Dunedain could very well have prophetic visions of their own (as did Aragorn before Moria). Prophesy was not restricted to Maiar.

[The Might]

Ok, now firstly to Malbeth.

I personally doubt it was Gandalf, we would have probably known that or Tolkien would have hinted towards it with some other acts of magic by Malbeth.

What he is most surely in my opinion is of Numenorean descent, simply by looking at his age.

He made the first prophecy in 1864 (according to HoME the birth year of Arvedui) and the second during Arvedui's reign, meaning after 1964. That is a hundred years span, surely showing that Malbeth had Numenorean blood.
But don't try and use his age as an argument for him being Gandalf, it was actually a normal thing, since for example Araphant, Arvedui's father lived 175 years, so it's ok for Malbeth to have made the prophecies 100 years or more apart.


Ok, now with that finished, let's take a closer look at Gandalf and what he did all that time.

There is, as far as I am aware of, one single more clear hint as to what Gandalf did all that time between discovering the shadow over Mirkwood around 1100 and 2060 when the Wise realised it might be Sauron over there in Dol Guldur.
But, it only remains a hint and nothing clear is stated:

If we assume that he first visited Gondor, sufficiently often and for long enough to acquire a name or names there – say in the reign of Atanatar Alcarin, about 1800 years before the War of the Ring – it would be possible to take Incánus as a Quenya name devised for him which later become obsolete, and was remembered only by the learned.

It's only something assumed and although it makes sense, it cannot be proven to be true, that is certain.

We must simply believe what is said, that

though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts.

Concerning the area he walked it, two quotes are of interest:

"The North" thus includes all this great area: roughly West to East from the Gulf of Lune to Núrnen, and North and South from Carn Dûm to the southern bounds of ancient Gondor between it and Near Harad. Beyond Núrnen Gandalf had never gone.

But his main province was "The North", and within it above all the North-west, Lindon, Eriador, and the Vales of Anduin.

As to what he exactly did, well:

He may have attempted to gain the Haradrim on his side, with little success though as it seems, maybe a mission similar to that of the Blue Wizards in the far east.

But the southern regions in touch with Gondor (and called by men of Gondor simply Harad "South", Near or Far) were probably both more convertible to the "Resistance," and also places where Sauron was most busy in the Third Age, since it was a source to him of man-power most readily used against Gondor. Into these regions Gandalf may well have journeyed in the earlier days of his labours.

Anyway he does not seem to have lingered there long, perhaps because he was received poorly and people did not trust him over Sauron.

At any rate it seems unlikely that he ever journeyed or stayed long enough in the Harad (or Far Harad!) to have there acquired a special name in any of the alien languages of those little known regions.

He appears to have neglected Gondor, though as seen above he did probably visit it or at least pass through it at times:

Gondor attracted his attention less, for the same reason that made it more interesting to Saruman: it was a centre of knowledge and power. Its rulers by ancestry and all their traditions were irrevocably opposed to Sauron, certainly politically: their realm arose as a threat to him, and continued to exist only in so far and so long as his threat to them could be resisted by armed force. Gandalf could do little to guide their proud rulers or to instruct them, and it was only in the decay of their power, when they were ennobled by courage and steadfastness in what seemed a losing cause, that he began to be deeply concerned with them.

So, all in all, I'd say he just wondered around, mostly in the west and the north-west amongst Elve, Men and Hobbits, all hostile to Sauron's darkness and tried to help and counsel them as he could, whilst he was gathering information about the shadow in the east. It appears clear that he was not expecting Sauron, this idea was first mentioned in 2060, but he may have built up a case to convince the Wise of the importance of an attack.

Lastly, I support the idea that Gandalf as a life-long traveller gave some tips to Aragorn before he set of on his own adventures in the wild of Middle-earth and perhaps also gave him the idea of using a false identity to hide his heritage. However, both this and any suspicion about some encounter with the Witch-king are plausible, but cannot be proven true with quotes from the texts.

That is all!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Might

However, both this and any suspicion about some encounter with the Witch-king are plausible, but cannot be proven true with quotes from the texts.

There is one quote in the LOTR drafts that may suggest the previous encounters of Gandalf and the Witch-King

Denethor and Faramir marvel at Gandalf's power over Nazgul. Gandalf says things are still not so bad - because the W[izard] King has not yet appeared. He reveals that he is a renegade of his own order ... [from]Numenor. "So far I have saved myself from him only by flight - for many an age he has lain in hiding or sleep while his master's power waned. But now he is grown more fell than ever. - (HOME 8) VI "The Siege of Gondor

Also, in the "Hunt for the Ring" texts the Witch-King seems to know about Gandalf and his powers:

Oct. 3: Gandalf reaches Weathertop but does not overtake [Witch-king and other four Riders]; for they become aware of his approach as he overtakes them on Shadowfax, and withdraw into hiding beside the road. They close in behind. [The Witch-king] is both pleased and puzzled. For a while he had been in great fear, thinking that by some means Gandalf had got possession of the Ring and was now the Bearer; but as Gandalf passes he is aware that Gandalf has not got the Ring. What is he pursuing? He himself must be after the escaping Bearer; and it must therefore somehow have gone on far ahead. But Gandalf is a great power and enemy. He must be dealt with, and yet that needs great force

.
It is unclear, however, whether the WK knows Gandalf from personal experience, or heard about him from Sauron.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by The Might

There is, as far as I am aware of, one single more clear hint as to what Gandalf did all that time between discovering the shadow over Mirkwood around 1100 and 2060 when the Wise realised it might be Sauron over there in Dol Guldur.
But, it only remains a hint and nothing clear is stated:

Although one cannot provide as clear a date as one can with the example you mentioned, still it seems that Gandalf visited Angmar, as I mentioned above in the quote. I guess this could have been in the Third Millennium, but I don't really see why he would have done so after Angmar was no longer a threat.

Also not discussed as much is the quote about Gandalf going in very guises. This suggests to me that he did not always venture forth as Gandalf himself, which might also explain the lack of records on him in the Second Millennium...

[The Might]

Mmm, that quote from HoMe VIII is nice, but it does not prove that Gandalf ever went to Angmar.
Another possibility would be that Gandalf was present when Black Uruks from Mordor attacked Osgiliath in 2475 and where Boromir I resisted furiously being feared even by the Witch-king. Maybe Gandalf was there, perhaps in some guise, why not, and that is where he learned of the Witch-king, perhaps had to flee. Same would go as an explanation for why the WK also saw Gandalf as a strong foe.

What I am trying to say is - of course your ideas are plausible, but so is that written above, there are no concrete things we learn about it, all is speculation.

And yes, I agree that Gandalf's guises are a good explanation for this lack of knowledge.