Head of the family? Earendil or Luthien? Dark or Golden?

[cellurdur]

This is more frivolous question, but it seems interesting to note that the Kings of Numenor and Elrond/Legolas/Lords of Valandil seem to trace their family through different lines. I think it is mentioned in the POME, that Elrond traced his heritage through Elwing and Luthien. Legolas calls Aragorn a child of Luthien and it seems the Elendil too considered Luthien as the matriarch of their line.

Now on the other hand the kings of Numenor, appear to have Earendil as the patriarch of their family. Ar-pharazon the Goldren and Tar-Aldarion both bring up Earendil when mentioning their ancestry rather than Luthien.

This interesting pattern seems to follow what Tolkien said about the Kings Men and the Faithful. Though at the time of Tar-Aldarion there was no split yet. Still Andunie was where the majority of Beorians lived. It stands to reason that the Lords of Andunie would marry into the great Beorian families and increase their reverence of Luthien. Luthien herself marrying Beren.

Now the Kings men were made mostly of the Marachians. They loved the sea and stands to reason they would greatly admire Earendil and Tuor from the House of Hador. From the writings that we have the kings of Numenor certainly seem to place Earendil as the head of the family.

"You cannot for ever in soft bonds the son of the king, of the blood of Tuor and Earendil".-Unfinished Tales

"for in his anger he deemed no king should ever arise so mighty as to vie with the heir of Earendil"

Following on from this, it stands to reason, that the majority of the Numenorean kings and descendants of Elros were in fact blone like Earendil before them. I think Gondor and Arnor have influenced how we view Numenoreans, when it should not be the case. The majority of the people of Numenor were Marachians and they would be blonde. The Heirs of Elros, most likely repeatedly married Marachians like the majority of their followers.

Lastly is there more to the Luthien/Earendil question than it seems? Elwing wanted to be part of the Eldar, because of Luthien, whilst Earendil wanted to die and pass from the world. Was choosing to place Earendil as the patriarch of the House choosing to live a more traditional Mannish lifestyle compared to the elvish nature of Luthien?

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

This is more frivolous question, but it seems interesting to note that the Kings of Numenor and Elrond/Legolas/Lords of Valandil seem to trace their family through different lines. I think it is mentioned in the POME, that Elrond traced his heritage through Elwing and Luthien. Legolas calls Aragorn a child of Luthien and it seems the Elendil too considered Luthien as the matriarch of their line.

I don’t see anything odd about the Dúnedain descended from Elros sometimes listing Elros as the founder of their line and sometimes tracing it back to Lúthien who was half-Elf and half-Maia, and so reckoned the most noble person to whom they could trace their descent.

It would be no odder for a King of Judah to sometimes refer to himself as a descendant of David, sometimes a descendant of Judah, and sometimes a descendant of Abraham.

You appear to me to be attempting to extract a meaning where there appears to me to be none. Of course a King of Númenor is likely to refer to Elros as the first King of Númemor. That does not indicate that they did not also recognize that they were descendants also of Eärendil and of Lúthien.

Following on from this, it stands to reason, that the majority of the Numenorean kings and descendants of Elros were in fact blone like Earendil before them. I think Gondor and Arnor have influenced how we view Numenoreans, when it should not be the case. The majority of the people of Numenor were Marachians and they would be blonde. The Heirs of Elros, most likely repeatedly married Marachians like the majority of their followers.

Those who read what Tolkien wrote about the Númenóreans know quite well that the majority of Númenóreans were blond. The also know that not all of the People of Marach were blond and that not all the People of Bëor were brown-haired and that even before the settlement on Númenor there was much intermarriage between those peoples.

Was choosing to place Earendil as the patriarch of the House choosing to live a more traditional Mannish lifestyle compared to the elvish nature of Luthien?

I doubt it. When the Númenórean kings turned against their Elvish tradition they would like likely try not to think much of Lúthien and Eärendil as figures connected with the Elvish tradition. Those who followed the Lords of Andúnië would tend to remember their links with the Elves.

You appear to me to be putting too much weight on individual statements of ancestry.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by jallanite

I don’t see anything odd about the Dúnedain descended from Elros sometimes listing Elros as the founder of their line and sometimes tracing it back to Lúthien who was half-Elf and half-Maia, and so reckoned the most noble person to whom they could trace their descent.

It would be no odder for a King of Judah to sometimes refer to himself as a descendant of David, sometimes a descendant of Judah, and sometimes a descendant of Abraham.

You appear to me to be attempting to extract a meaning where there appears to me to be none. Of course a King of Númenor is likely to refer to Elros as the first King of Númemor. That does not indicate that they did not also recognize that they were descendants also of Eärendil and of Lúthien.

I don't mention that there is anything strange in mentioning Elros as the head of the Royal House. However, this is different than the way Luthien and Earendil are mentioned.

I was commenting on the prestige given Earendil and Luthien. When it comes to the Numenoreans two distinct ancestors are honoured above all others.

You bring up the example of the Jewish lines. Yet actually if a descendant of Abraham-Judah-David constantly used one name over the other he would indeed be stressing something. If he constantly called himself a child of Abraham, I would imagine he was stressing his claim to the promises given to Abraham. If he said he was of the a son of David, would imply he was stressing his royal lineage.

The Numenorean Kings have many great and powerful ancestors; Fingolfin, Finwe, Turgon, Thingol, Melian, Dior etc. Yet only two are singled out.

Those who read what Tolkien wrote about the Númenóreans know quite well that the majority of Númenóreans were blond. The also know that not all of the People of Marach were blond and that not all the People of Bëor were brown-haired and that even before the settlement on Númenor there was much intermarriage between those peoples.

I don't think Tolkien ever said that the majority of Numenoreans were blond? Could you please provide the quote. This can be inferred from his comment that the majority of the Numenoreans were Marachian.

I doubt it. When the Númenórean kings turned against their Elvish tradition they would like likely try not to think much of Lúthien and Eärendil as figures connected with the Elvish tradition. Those who followed the Lords of Andúnië would tend to remember their links with the Elves.
You appear to me to be putting too much weight on individual statements of ancestry.

Well you are wrong. It is mentioned several times how different kings specifically invoke how the heirs of Earendil should not have to die. Ar-pharazon boast that the heir of Earendil should never have a rival for the title King of Men.

[B]For though the Valar had rewarded them with long life....and they died, even their kings of the seed of Earendil;[/B said by the Kings Men.

And does not my Earendil, my forefather live? Or is he not in the land of Aman.-said by Tar Ciryaton

he deemed no king should ever arise so mighty as to vie with the Heir of Earendil said by Ar-pharazon the Golden


The King's men always evoke the name of Earendil. Elrond on the other hand traces his lineage through Luthien and Thingol. Legolas too chooses to trace Aragorn's heritage through Luthien.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I was commenting on the prestige given Earendil and Luthien. When it comes to the Numenoreans two distinct ancestors are honoured above all others.

That Eärendil had been made immortal and purportedly was visible in the sky bearing the last Silmaril as the planet Venus seems to me to adequately account for the mentions made of him by the kings. Eärendil was simply more famed and renowned to them than the others, for his voyages, for reaching Valinor and summoning the forces who finally defeated Morgoth, for becoming with his wife immortal, and for his slaying of the dragon Ancalagon, for which Eärendil’s mortal son Elros was made first King of Númenor.

Naturally one would imagine that in the latter days of Númenor it might have been more clearly brought out by poets that Eärendil, the father of the line of kings, would have chosen to remain mortal. Or it might not. The poets may have chosen to ignore that Eärendil would have become mortal save for the influence of his wife as they were beginning to interpret the old stores as an indication that immortality in the Undying Lands was the right of mortals.

You bring up the example of the Jewish lines. Yet actually if a descendant of Abraham-Judah-David constantly used one name over the other he would indeed be stressing something. If he constantly called himself a child of Abraham, I would imagine he was stressing his claim to the promises given to Abraham. If he said he was of the a son of David, would imply he was stressing his royal lineage.

Quite so. And since in the case of the Kings of Númenor it was Eärendil who was considered to be the cause of the foundation of Númenor and was more honoured for his deeds than Elros, it is not surprising at all to me that Eärendil is more mentioned than Elros by the kings descended from him.

I don't think Tolkien ever said that the majority of Numenoreans were blond? Could you please provide the quote. This can be inferred from his comment that the majority of the Numenoreans were Marachian.

From Unfinished Tales, page 228:

There Almarian the Queen observed her [Erendis’] beauty, of a kind seldom seen in Númenor; for Beregar [father of Erendis] came of the House of Bëor by ancient descent, though not of the royal line of Elros, and Erendis was dark-haired and of slender grace, with the clear grey eyes of her kin.¹⁰

10    Cf. The Silmarillion p. 148: ‘The Men of that House [i.e. of Bëor] were dark or brown of hair, with grey eyes.’ According to a genealogical table of the House of Bëor Erendis was descended from Bereth, who was the sister of Baragund and Belegund, and thus the aunt of Morwen mother of Túrin Turambar and of Rían the mother of Tuor.

Well you are wrong. It is mentioned several times how different kings specifically invoke how the heirs of Earendil should not have to die.

What you posted was:

Was choosing to place Earendil as the patriarch of the House choosing to live a more traditional Mannish lifestyle compared to the elvish nature of Luthien?

That was what my remark “I doubt it” referred to. I don’t see how anyone could mistake my meaning. I still doubt it. Your quotations do not refer to or even mention Eärendil’s wishing to choose a mortal life style. What then was I wrong about?

The King's men always evoke the name of Earendil. Elrond on the other hand traces his lineage through Luthien and Thingol. Legolas too chooses to trace Aragorn's heritage through Luthien.

From the chapter “The Council of Elrond”:

Eärendil was my sire, who was born in Gondolin before its fall; and my mother was Elwing, daughter of Dior, son of Lúthien of Doriath.

Elrond traces his lineage both to Eärendil and to Elwing (granddaughter of Lúthen). Your discussion suggests strongly that Elrond doesn’t mention Eärendi at all which is very much not true. And this remark is the only place where Elrond refers to his ancestry.

Legolas says:

But nobler is his [Aragorn’s] spirit than the understanding of Sauron; for is he not of the children of Lúthien? Never shall that line fail, though the years may lengthen beyond count.

Legolas appears to refer to an otherwise untold prophecy concerning the children of Lúthen and so quite naturally mentions Lúthien. Would you insist that Legolas is ignoring Eärendil because he does not awkwardly say, “… the children of Lúthien (through her granddaughter Elwing, Eärendil’s wife)?” Of course in such a mention Legolas does not mention any progenitor but Lúthien.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by jallanite

That Eärendil had been made immortal and purportedly was visible in the sky bearing the last Silmaril as the planet Venus seems to me to adequately account for the mentions made of him by the kings. Eärendil was simply more famed and renowned to them than the others, for his voyages, for reaching Valinor and summoning the forces who finally defeated Morgoth, for becoming with his wife immortal, and for his slaying of the dragon Ancalagon, for which Eärendil’s mortal son Elros was made first King of Númenor.

Naturally one would imagine that in the latter days of Númenor it might have been more clearly brought out by poets that Eärendil, the father of the line of kings, would have chosen to remain mortal. Or it might not. The poets may have chosen to ignore that Eärendil would have become mortal save for the influence of his wife as they were beginning to interpret the old stores as an indication that immortality in the Undying Lands was the right of mortals.

You have changed your train of argument. You are now in agreement, that for the Kings, Earendil was heralded as their foremost ancestor. All you are trying to do now is answer the reason why.

Quite so. And since in the case of the Kings of Númenor it was Eärendil who was considered to be the cause of the foundation of Númenor and was more honoured for his deeds than Elros, it is not surprising at all to me that Eärendil is more mentioned than Elros by the kings descended from him.

The kings were of the House of Elros. I would not go as far as to say he was mentioned more, but he was regarded by the kings at least as their greatest ancestor and mentioned with the most honour. Mentioned more than Elros may not surprise you but what about Luthien?

From Unfinished Tales, page 228:

There Almarian the Queen observed her [Erendis’] beauty, of a kind seldom seen in Númenor; for Beregar [father of Erendis] came of the House of Bëor by ancient descent, though not of the royal line of Elros, and Erendis was dark-haired and of slender grace, with the clear grey eyes of her kin.¹⁰

10    Cf. The Silmarillion p. 148: ‘The Men of that House [i.e. of Bëor] were dark or brown of hair, with grey eyes.’ According to a genealogical table of the House of Bëor Erendis was descended from Bereth, who was the sister of Baragund and Belegund, and thus the aunt of Morwen mother of Túrin Turambar and of Rían the mother of Tuor.

This does not really tell us anything about the rest of the Numenoreans being blond. The beauty seldom seen in Numenor could be taken as a reference, that she was just exceptionally beautiful and few other women could match her. Erendis is compared to Morwen, the most beautiful woman of the Edain in the first age.

I agree there is a second way to read it; this being that her dark beauty(brunette and grey eyes) was the beauty that was seldom seen, but I am not sure this is what Tolkien intended. There is never any outright statement that the majority of the Numenoreans were blond.

What you posted was:

Was choosing to place Earendil as the patriarch of the House choosing to live a more traditional Mannish lifestyle compared to the elvish nature of Luthien?

That was what my remark “I doubt it” referred to. I don’t see how anyone could mistake my meaning. I still doubt it. Your quotations do not refer to or even mention Eärendil’s wishing to choose a mortal life style. What then was I wrong about?

Okay, but perhaps you should have been clearer here.

I doubt it. When the Númenórean kings turned against their Elvish tradition they would like likely try not to think much of Lúthien and Eärendil as figures connected with the Elvish tradition. Those who followed the Lords of Andúnië would tend to remember their links with the Elves.

You did say the King's men would not want to think about Luthien and Earendil.

From the chapter “The Council of Elrond”:

Eärendil was my sire, who was born in Gondolin before its fall; and my mother was Elwing, daughter of Dior, son of Lúthien of Doriath.

Elrond traces his lineage both to Eärendil and to Elwing (granddaughter of Lúthen). Your discussion suggests strongly that Elrond doesn’t mention Eärendi at all which is very much not true. And this remark is the only place where Elrond refers to his ancestry.

Of course Elrond was proud of both lines of his ancestry and particularly Earendil. However, in the POME we are told he traced his ancestry through Luthien back to Thingol. Elrond personally considered himself a Sindar rather than a Noldor.

Legolas says:

But nobler is his [Aragorn’s] spirit than the understanding of Sauron; for is he not of the children of Lúthien? Never shall that line fail, though the years may lengthen beyond count.

Legolas appears to refer to an otherwise untold prophecy concerning the children of Lúthen and so quite naturally mentions Lúthien. Would you insist that Legolas is ignoring Eärendil because he does not awkwardly say, “… the children of Lúthien (through her granddaughter Elwing, Eärendil’s wife)?” Of course in such a mention Legolas does not mention any progenitor but Lúthien.

The prophecy you mention is spoken by Aragorn himself earlier in the story.

Notice that they are called 'Children of Luthien.' They could just as easily be called the children of Thingol, the children of Melian or the children of Dior. It makes little difference in context of the prophecy. Since if Luthien's line will never fail it means neither will the line of Melian, Thingol or Dior.

The fact that Luthien's name alone is mentioned shows that she is considered the primary matriarch of that line.

I don't think we can be in any doubt, that there are two figures held above all the other ancestors of the Numenoreans/Half-elven. The King's men definitely sway to Earendil and we are not told the reason why so I am just speculating. We are given the reason why Elrond does not want to be considered as part of the Noldor.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You have changed your train of argument. You are now in agreement, that for the Kings, Earendil was heralded as their foremost ancestor. All you are trying to do now is answer the reason why.

No I am not. I merely put forth the argument which I believe, and I think almost everyone believes, that Eärendil would be a natural person to name as the main ancestor. I still doubt that Eärendil’s original desire to be mortal is considered at all. I never stated I now accepted what seems to me to be an absurd conclusion.

If you consider my discussion to be reasonable, then I suppose you no longer make this claim. That appears to be your logic.

Mentioned more than Elros may not surprise you but what about Luthien?

And what about Melian and Idril? That they and Lúthien are not mentioned by the Kings of Númenor also does not surprise me at all. One would expect in a normally sexist society that only the male lineage would be commonly mentioned, as is common in medieval genealogies.

This does not really tell us anything about the rest of the Numenoreans being blond. The beauty seldom seen in Numenor could be taken as a reference, that she was just exceptionally beautiful and few other women could match her. Erendis is compared to Morwen, the most beautiful woman of the Edain in the first age.

I agree there is a second way to read it; this being that her dark beauty(brunette and grey eyes) was the beauty that was seldom seen, but I am not sure this is what Tolkien intended.

I am sure that is what Tolkien intended because I read Tolkien’s words as they are obviously meant. Tolkien begins by writing:

There Almarian the Queen observed her [Erendis’] beauty, of a kind seldom seen in Númenor;

Tolkien does not write that Erendis was exceptionally beautiful (though that is probably to also be understood), but that that she possessed a “beauty, of a kind seldom seen in Númenor”. Note the word kind which refers to a sort of beauty, not to beauty in general, for example to a buxom amzonian beauty, or a graceful slim beauty, or a red-haired, freckled beauty, or some other kind of beauty. You ignore Tolkien’s use of the word kind.

Then Tolkien follows this with the word for. He is now indicating the cause of this kind of beauty, not to Erendis’ general beauty. He writes:

… for Beregar [Erendis’ father] came of the House of Bëor by ancient descent, though not of the royal line of Elros,

So this kind of beauty comes to Erendis through her ancestry. Since Tolkien only mentions elsewhere that the people of Bëor were brown-haired and grey-eyed, presumably this kind of beauty seldom seen in Númenor would be that of the folk of Bëor and would refer to the brown hair and grey eyes common among the folk of Bëor, the folk of Bëor not being as common in Númenor as the mainly blond folk of Marach.

Tolkien then further indicates by plain statement the kind of beauty possessed by Erendis by writing:

… and Erendis was dark-haired and of slender grace, with the clear grey eyes of her kin.

Her Tolkien states, if it were not clear from what he had previously written, that Erendis is dark-haired and with grey-eyes; and that is the kind of beauty that she possessed which is seldom seen in Númenor. If Tolkien had intended Erendis to be compared to Morwen he could have simply said so. He did not say so.

There is never any outright statement that the majority of the Numenoreans were blond.

I did not say there was. There is only a strong implication. You asked, “I don’t think Tolkien ever said that the majority of Númenoreans were blond? Could you please provide the quote.” The only quote I have that you seem not to know about I provided. When put together with references to the fair-haired Hadorians and the brown-haired Bëorians in The Silmarillion, this quote indicates clearly that the majority of women in Númenor were of a different kind of beauty from Erendis, presumably different in hair-colour and eye-colour, and presumably blond like most Hadorians. Tolkien uses the word kind which you just ignore. Ignoring it does not make the word vanish.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:N%..._Needs_Editing for a note about this.

Notice that they are called 'Children of Luthien.' They could just as easily be called the children of Thingol, the children of Melian or the children of Dior. It makes little difference in context of the prophecy.

“Could” doesn’t change the fact that the reference twice refers to Lúthien and not to the others. I suspect Tolkien may have imagined this prophecy as given by Mandos to Lúthen, but that is only a guess. But if it is to be understood that a genuine prophecy was given, then it was given to Lúthien or about Lúthien, not to or about Melian, Thingol, or Dior. That the prophecy would be just as true if said of the others is correct. But it is not repeated about the others.

The fact that Luthien's name alone is mentioned shows that she is considered the primary matriarch of that line.

The only matriarch ever mentioned by Tolkien Gollum’s grandmother. Tolkien did not used the word matriarch otherwise and so far as I see no-one but yourself considers Lúthien to be “the primary matriarch”. That is only title you have invented, unused by Tolkien except for Gollum’s grandmother.

We are given the reason why Elrond does not want to be considered as part of the Noldor.

No we aren’t. Nowhere, so far as I recall, does Elrond ever stated to be either part of the Noldor or Sindarin. He is always entitled “Half-elven”, but presumably as a descendant of Idril he would consider himself a descendant of the Noldor. Where is it stated that Elrond does not want to be considered as a descendant of the Noldor?

Elrond does not happen to mention Idril in the one case where he mentions his descent. That this means he rejects his decent from Fingon, if that is what you mean, would only be your own invention and a dubious one. Frodo indicates puzzlement and amazement that Elrond claims to have participated in the Last Alliance. Apparently Frodo (rather surprisingly) does not know any of the details of Elrond’s past. Elrond answers that “Eärendil was my sire, who was horn in Gondolin before its fall.” Presumably Elrond mentions when Eärendil was born as an indication of his age, dating back long before the Last Alliance, and parhaps traces his mother Elwing only to Lúthien because of the prophecy. Why Elrond does not mention his paternal grandmother Idril or his great-grandfather Beren we are simply not told. Why Elrond does not mention Tuor at all we are not told.

Your explanations are only your own inventions.

[Galadriel]

Eärendil, for the simple reason that this is largely a patriarchal society we're talking about.

If the choice was between Eärendil and Beren, however, it may be a bit more complicated. I suppose, though, that Eärendil still seems to hold more favour among his descendants than does Beren. I kind of see Beren as representing bravery and chivalry, and Eärendil as representing a kind of ethereal monarchy with astounding, almost god-like strength. And in Tolkien's ME, the ones with an air of kingliness/queenliness tend to be remembered more than those who are brave/courageous. E.g. Frodo being almost forgotten despite carrying the fate of ME in his little hands. Not saying that Beren isn't remembered, because we all know he is, but I'd say Eärendil still wins this one.

And I'm probably talking nonsense because I haven't read the books in forever, so correct me if I went horribly wrong. :P

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Eärendil, for the simple reason that this is largely a patriarchal society we're talking about.

If the choice was between Eärendil and Beren, however, it may be a bit more complicated. I suppose, though, that Eärendil still seems to hold more favour among his descendants than does Beren. I kind of see Beren as representing bravery and chivalry, and Eärendil as representing a kind of ethereal monarchy with astounding, almost god-like strength. And in Tolkien's ME, the ones with an air of kingliness/queenliness tend to be remembered more than those who are brave/courageous. E.g. Frodo being almost forgotten despite carrying the fate of ME in his little hands. Not saying that Beren isn't remembered, because we all know he is, but I'd say Eärendil still wins this one.

And I'm probably talking nonsense because I haven't read the books in forever, so correct me if I went horribly wrong. :P

I have quoted a lot of information already. Luthien was considered the head of the line by virtually ALL of her descendants. She was named first and her descendants were named after her. Her only competition in this matter is Earendil and it was because he was the saviour of Middle Earth and second in nobility to Luthien.

Finwe, Elwe, Ingwe and Olwe gained their royal status, because they were brave enough to make the journey to Valinor. The Noldor did seem to only pass the High Kingship through the male line and to males, but that is not true with the Sindar. Dior is Thingol's heir/

As for other matriarchs there is Haleth, the head of her family.

Lastly the reason queens are not mentioned, because Tolkien is focusing on the ruling monarch.

[Galadriel]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Finwe, Elwe, Ingwe and Olwe gained their royal status, because they were brave enough to make the journey to Valinor. The Noldor did seem to only pass the High Kingship through the male line and to males, but that is not true with the Sindar. Dior is Thingol's heir/

So did all the Elves, actually, save the Teleri. They weren't the only ones brave enough to make the journey. Dior is a male, by the way, so I have no idea what you're talking about when you say he's Thingol's heir. You're just proving my point.

As for other matriarchs there is Haleth, the head of her family.

If I remember correctly, that is only because the patriarch died, not because she was first choice.

Lastly the reason queens are not mentioned, because Tolkien is focusing on the ruling monarch.

That's no excuse. Unless the queens had absolutely no say in ruling the kingdom, that is, and even then it's a really dubious reason. I don't know if there's any country in which queens are not mentioned for generations on end. Even in a strictly patriarchal dynasty, such as that of the Mughals, in which emperors had several wives who most certainly were not rulers or rarely even unofficial advisers, they are all mentioned. You seem to be defending the sexist/misogynistic procedure of omitting female names entirely, just because they weren't the 'ruling monarchs'. They provided the heirs, at the very least, which I'm pretty sure these monarchs couldn't do unless they were amoebas or something. I'm sorry, but Tolkien's ME is quite sexist, and there's little you can say to contradict that.

[cellurdur]

[QUOTE=Galadriel;679095]

So did all the Elves, actually, save the Teleri. They weren't the only ones brave enough to make the journey. Dior is a male, by the way, so I have no idea what you're talking about when you say he's Thingol's heir. You're just proving my point.

No they were the initial ambassadors brave enough to make the journey first and then give a report back to the other elves. This is why they became the kings and leaders of their people.

Yes Dior is a male, but he was Luthien's son. The Sindar accepted Dior as their king, through a maternal line. If Luthien had chosen too, they would have had her as their queen.

If I remember correctly, that is only because the patriarch died, not because she was first choice.

It does not matter, she led the people instead of her brother's sons. The royal family was called the House of Haleth after her and she was not actually a direct ancestress of that line.

That's no excuse. Unless the queens had absolutely no say in ruling the kingdom, that is, and even then it's a really dubious reason. I don't know if there's any country in which queens are not mentioned for generations on end. Even in a strictly patriarchal dynasty, such as that of the Mughals, in which emperors had several wives who most certainly were not rulers or rarely even unofficial advisers, they are all mentioned. You seem to be defending the sexist/misogynistic procedure of omitting female names entirely, just because they weren't the 'ruling monarchs'. They provided the heirs, at the very least, which I'm pretty sure these monarchs couldn't do unless they were amoebas or something. I'm sorry, but Tolkien's ME is quite sexist, and there's little you can say to contradict that.

Technically I am not sure the Queen would legally have much of a say as Queen consort. I am not aware of anything to suggest they would. That is not to say they would not be appointed as a member of the Council anyway, but the role of Queen Consort does not necessarily grant political power with Gondor or Numenor.

I am saying that it is common to trace royal lines through only the Reigning Monarch. I have previously given the example of Prince Charles. Nobody traces his line through Prince Philip. I also used the example of Queen Victoria. She is called the mother of European royal families, but Prince Albert is not called the father.

We will have to disagree on this. There are too many cultures with different practices and customs to call Tolkien's ME sexist. Especially when we look at Numenor in times of peace having ruling Queens.

Slightly off topic, but in cultures where the Monarch has more than one wife, it is far more important to note the mother, because more often than not, the loyalties of the Monarch would depend on his mother's family.