Head of the family? Earendil or Luthien? Dark or Golden?

[Galadriel]

Eärendil, for the simple reason that this is largely a patriarchal society we're talking about.

If the choice was between Eärendil and Beren, however, it may be a bit more complicated. I suppose, though, that Eärendil still seems to hold more favour among his descendants than does Beren. I kind of see Beren as representing bravery and chivalry, and Eärendil as representing a kind of ethereal monarchy with astounding, almost god-like strength. And in Tolkien's ME, the ones with an air of kingliness/queenliness tend to be remembered more than those who are brave/courageous. E.g. Frodo being almost forgotten despite carrying the fate of ME in his little hands. Not saying that Beren isn't remembered, because we all know he is, but I'd say Eärendil still wins this one.

And I'm probably talking nonsense because I haven't read the books in forever, so correct me if I went horribly wrong. :P

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Eärendil, for the simple reason that this is largely a patriarchal society we're talking about.

If the choice was between Eärendil and Beren, however, it may be a bit more complicated. I suppose, though, that Eärendil still seems to hold more favour among his descendants than does Beren. I kind of see Beren as representing bravery and chivalry, and Eärendil as representing a kind of ethereal monarchy with astounding, almost god-like strength. And in Tolkien's ME, the ones with an air of kingliness/queenliness tend to be remembered more than those who are brave/courageous. E.g. Frodo being almost forgotten despite carrying the fate of ME in his little hands. Not saying that Beren isn't remembered, because we all know he is, but I'd say Eärendil still wins this one.

And I'm probably talking nonsense because I haven't read the books in forever, so correct me if I went horribly wrong. :P

I have quoted a lot of information already. Luthien was considered the head of the line by virtually ALL of her descendants. She was named first and her descendants were named after her. Her only competition in this matter is Earendil and it was because he was the saviour of Middle Earth and second in nobility to Luthien.

Finwe, Elwe, Ingwe and Olwe gained their royal status, because they were brave enough to make the journey to Valinor. The Noldor did seem to only pass the High Kingship through the male line and to males, but that is not true with the Sindar. Dior is Thingol's heir/

As for other matriarchs there is Haleth, the head of her family.

Lastly the reason queens are not mentioned, because Tolkien is focusing on the ruling monarch.

[Galadriel]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Finwe, Elwe, Ingwe and Olwe gained their royal status, because they were brave enough to make the journey to Valinor. The Noldor did seem to only pass the High Kingship through the male line and to males, but that is not true with the Sindar. Dior is Thingol's heir/

So did all the Elves, actually, save the Teleri. They weren't the only ones brave enough to make the journey. Dior is a male, by the way, so I have no idea what you're talking about when you say he's Thingol's heir. You're just proving my point.

As for other matriarchs there is Haleth, the head of her family.

If I remember correctly, that is only because the patriarch died, not because she was first choice.

Lastly the reason queens are not mentioned, because Tolkien is focusing on the ruling monarch.

That's no excuse. Unless the queens had absolutely no say in ruling the kingdom, that is, and even then it's a really dubious reason. I don't know if there's any country in which queens are not mentioned for generations on end. Even in a strictly patriarchal dynasty, such as that of the Mughals, in which emperors had several wives who most certainly were not rulers or rarely even unofficial advisers, they are all mentioned. You seem to be defending the sexist/misogynistic procedure of omitting female names entirely, just because they weren't the 'ruling monarchs'. They provided the heirs, at the very least, which I'm pretty sure these monarchs couldn't do unless they were amoebas or something. I'm sorry, but Tolkien's ME is quite sexist, and there's little you can say to contradict that.

[cellurdur]

[QUOTE=Galadriel;679095]

So did all the Elves, actually, save the Teleri. They weren't the only ones brave enough to make the journey. Dior is a male, by the way, so I have no idea what you're talking about when you say he's Thingol's heir. You're just proving my point.

No they were the initial ambassadors brave enough to make the journey first and then give a report back to the other elves. This is why they became the kings and leaders of their people.

Yes Dior is a male, but he was Luthien's son. The Sindar accepted Dior as their king, through a maternal line. If Luthien had chosen too, they would have had her as their queen.

If I remember correctly, that is only because the patriarch died, not because she was first choice.

It does not matter, she led the people instead of her brother's sons. The royal family was called the House of Haleth after her and she was not actually a direct ancestress of that line.

That's no excuse. Unless the queens had absolutely no say in ruling the kingdom, that is, and even then it's a really dubious reason. I don't know if there's any country in which queens are not mentioned for generations on end. Even in a strictly patriarchal dynasty, such as that of the Mughals, in which emperors had several wives who most certainly were not rulers or rarely even unofficial advisers, they are all mentioned. You seem to be defending the sexist/misogynistic procedure of omitting female names entirely, just because they weren't the 'ruling monarchs'. They provided the heirs, at the very least, which I'm pretty sure these monarchs couldn't do unless they were amoebas or something. I'm sorry, but Tolkien's ME is quite sexist, and there's little you can say to contradict that.

Technically I am not sure the Queen would legally have much of a say as Queen consort. I am not aware of anything to suggest they would. That is not to say they would not be appointed as a member of the Council anyway, but the role of Queen Consort does not necessarily grant political power with Gondor or Numenor.

I am saying that it is common to trace royal lines through only the Reigning Monarch. I have previously given the example of Prince Charles. Nobody traces his line through Prince Philip. I also used the example of Queen Victoria. She is called the mother of European royal families, but Prince Albert is not called the father.

We will have to disagree on this. There are too many cultures with different practices and customs to call Tolkien's ME sexist. Especially when we look at Numenor in times of peace having ruling Queens.

Slightly off topic, but in cultures where the Monarch has more than one wife, it is far more important to note the mother, because more often than not, the loyalties of the Monarch would depend on his mother's family.