Sauron, devoted servant of Melkor?

[lore_master]

If Sauron HAD the power, do you think he would have released Melkor from the void?

personally i think that Sauron had grown to accustom to power and did not want to become sencond in command again

[Inziladun]

You're probably right. By the time of the War of the Ring, Sauron's pride had grown to the point where he likely considered himself nearly Morgoth's equal. Like you, I don't think he would have willingly placed himself under Morgoth again.

[davem]

Tolkien does state that while Morgoth wanted to destroy Ea, reduce it to chaos, Sauron wanted absolute control - as we see in the War of the Ring, the people of the West are fighting to avoid becoming slaves, not to avoid becoming corpses.

This being the case, I'd say that the last thing Sauron would consider doing is releasing this being who wants to wreck his plans for world domination! Sauron would make use of the memory/idea of Morgoth - as in Numenor, & also of the remnants of his evil spread throughout Arda (the idea that the whole of Arda is Morgoth's 'Ring', the object that he pours his evil into) to make his own rise to power easier, but I think that's as far as it went. I don't think Sauron had any concept of loyalty!

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

I agree that Sauron is treacherous and megalomaniac, but can he be convinced that the Valar would not invade Middle-Earth again? Consider that in the Second Age, Sauron did not have sufficient strength to conquer every single race. The Numenoreans came to the aid of the Elves and, together with allied dwarves, drove Sauron to a corner. And Numenoreans are just Men, albeit beefed up with Wisdom and Knowledge. In the Third Age, Sauron had even more enemies to contend with: the Istari.

The Valar send the Istari (Maia) because they felt that a Maia should be dealt with be other Maia. But if Sauron obtained the Ring, he would have dominated or destroyed all of the Istari. By that time, I am sure that the Valar would have found him too much of a nuisance, and would just hog-tie him and throw him into space to accompany his boss.

Besides, depending on which version you read, Morgoth's will was said to be able to creep back to Middle-Earth to cause some mischief. Personally, I am of the opinion that Morgoth's Will/Spirit/Psychic power had secretly urged Sauron's subconscious to muster the Evil powers and try to release him. Consider: when Sauron was a captive on Numenor, he led the Numenoreans to worship Morgoth, even though he could have easily distanced himself with the 'jailbird of Mandos'. (And thus setup a cult to worship only himself)

No, I feel that sooner or later, Sauron would have released Morgoth from the void, if not for loyalty, than for fear of the Valar. Sauron have seem the destruction in the First Age, and he would probably have known that he would be cast out ultimately if he do not find someone who can contest with the Valar. (And even Morgoth is a poor choice, considering that he is only one against so many of the Valar)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It is hard to say how independent Sauron was from Morgoth. If we consider Sauron a separate evil power from Morgoth then I doubt he would have tried to release Morgoth. However, if Morgoth still had a 'hold' on Sauron then it is easy to see that Sauron would always have that temptation to try and release his former master.

On a side note, could Sauron have released Morgoth anyway? Was he capable.?

[davem]

Yes, but if Morgoth comes back, Sauron loses his only chance of ruling the world, beause Morgoth is so filled with hatred of Illuvatar's creation that he will seek to destroy it completely. Sauron's essential nature drives him to seek total control of everything. The Ring is designed for 'control & coercion' of all things. Morgoth would become Sauron's enemy if he returned. The two of them couldn't coexist - though they might end up destroying each other! But that's not to say that if he had found it possible, & if backed into a corner, his fear would not have proved strongest, & he would have released Morgoth, on the principle of 'If I can't have the world, no-one's going to have it & I'll bring back Morgoth to finish it off'. But that would, among other things, require him to wait till Earendel was napping.

I suspect that Sauron used Morgoth as an idea/symbol in Numenor. Effectively the Numenoreans did worship Sauron, because as 'High Priest' of Morgoth his word would be law.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

I guess that would be a matter of perspective then.

If Sauron had sufficient power to stand against BOTH Morgoth and the Valar... that is a foregone conclusion.

If Sauron had power to release Morgoth but no power to stand against the Valar... He might comtemplate releasing Morgy if he see the Valar landing on his shores.

If Sauron had power to release Morgoth and the power to stand against the Valar... Poor Morgy...

But Sauron could not possibly stand against the Valar unless his powers can grow like a tree. (Neither could Morgy) And in a typical Prof T setting, you will find that 'Evil do not prosper' is written in every corner.

[Sharkû]

A mostly very good discussion of this topic can be found here: Sauron's Goal and the Dagor Dagorath.
(And by that I mean of course that you should read my long post there )

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Would the Valar really attack Sauron, as they had with Morgoth? I don't think so. Why? They'd risk sinking the entire North-west of Middle-earth! They know their powers, and it's not suited for such a place. Violent upheavals of the tectonic plates - jk - have resulted from the battles fought by the Ainur on Middle-earth.

Sauron knows all this, or at least he'd seen enough evidence to dispel any notions of an attack from Valinor. So he's probably use Morgoth as symbol for men under his own dominion, if fear of him is not enough to sway their convictions that evil is...well...good. That's probably all the purpose Sauron had for Morgoth.

[Firefoot]

I don't think Sauron would release Morgoth because if Sauron wanted world dominion (which he did) he would not be able to get it with the more powerful Morgoth standing in his way. Sauron would be reduced to "most powerful servant" again rather than "the Dark Lord." I think that Sauron would prefer the latter.

Here's an interesting thought.

For with the consent of Eru they [the Valar] sent members of their own high order...

Would Eru have let the Valar attack Sauron? It seems from this quote from UT "The Istari" that the Valar needed Eru's "permission" to send the Istari to M-e. So even if the Valar might have gone to M-e to go against Sauron (I don't think they would), I don't think Eru would "allow" them to. The Valar wanted the peoples of M-e to learn to cope on their own, which is why they sent the Istari.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Well, if Sauron do not fear the Valar even though he witnessed the destruction of the First Age, then he is probably blind...

Even if Sauron do not fear the Valar, he would have realised that the Illuvator would probably step in to weed him out. Eru destroyed an entire land to vend his wrath against the corrupt Numenoreans. If the need arise, Eru could probably stage another 'Noah and the Flood' incident just to destroy Sauron, and why not?

But then, I don't really believe that Sauron could either maintain his power over Arda, or gather sufficient strength to release Morgoth. Politics at the point of a spear is tiring work...

[davem]

But Numenor was destroyed because of the behaviour of the Numenoreans, not the behaviour of Sauron. To destroy the whole of the West of ME because of Sauron would perhaps have been a little unreasonable. One tends to lose respect for a deity that goes around destroying millions of people just to get rid of his enemies!

Having said that, Illuvatar had proven that he was willing to use the 'ultimate deterent', so Sauron probably knew that if he did manage to corrupt or totally dominate Me Illuvatar probably would have intervened to stop him. Which brings up the question we've just been playing around with in the Doom of Doriath thread - if only Men are not bound by the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else (which presumably includes Maiar within Arda) how much freedom of action did Sauron have? Is it that Illuvatar has to intervene, as with Numenor, when a course of action requires a change to be made which is outside the Music, a change which even the Valar cannot make, being bound by the Music themselves?

But that would mean that in terms of freedom of action, Men are freer than the Valar, & so, in a sense, more powerful, but .....

(Sorry, but that needs thinking about!)

[Eorl of Rohan]

Originally posted by davem
if only Men are not bound by the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else (which presumably includes Maiar within Arda) how much freedom of action did Sauron have?

I was thinking about this matter a while back. Only MEN had the power to change the world to their own will even above the will of Valar, and certainly not Morgoth or Sauron.

Men learned the craft of flight, (airplanes) while Morgoth never learned to fly though he cut off the wings of Thronhoth, people of Sorontur Eagles. It is not ordained that MEN should fly, not in Iluvatar's music, but we made it. But Melkor could not, because Morgoth was one of Ainur. And Sauron would not be more stronger then his master Melkor, he who arises in might, would he?

Does that make any sense?

[davem]

It makes sense to me. Illuvatar says in Ainulindale that none may change the Music in his despite, so, any changes would have to be Divinely 'approved', but He 'authorises' men to make changes, which he doesn't even allow the Valar to do. So the Valar are not the same as the Pagan 'gods', but more like Angels, doing Illuvatar's will only, & not able to defy it or change it (meaning that even Melkor & Sauron have only the illusion of freedom). So that would mean that men are given true freedom, when Valar, Maiar & Elves are not. The Valar's role seems to be only to actualise the themes of the Music.

So, because the Fall of Numenor & the re-shaping of the World was not in the original Music (we assume), & was brought about by the rebellion of Men as a result of their freedom, the Valar cannot deal with it, & it has to be brought about by Illuvatar, who is not bound by the Music & can change it. In other words, any change in the Music requires the Valar to lay down their governance of Arda.

Conclusion: Illuvatar has absolute freedom to act to change the world, Men have freedom to act beyond the dictates of the Music, if permitted to do so by Illuvatar, who has to 'allow' or 'disallow' their choices, & the Valar & Elves' role is to try & actualise the themes of the Music.

Unless I'm completely wrong in my interpretation

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I think Sauron would have realised Morgoth from the Void, We don’t know if he knew that Melko wanted to completely destroy Eá. I don’t think he would have joined him in the first place if he did, Sauron was promised to ruler over much of the world, so that would seem to be the incentive for him to become evil. I still think he was faithful to Morgoth as in Numenor he tyres to persuade them to worship him, as he says;

His name is Melkor, Lord of All, giver of freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they.
Found in "The Silmarillion" Akallabéth

It would seem that even after his master's downfall, he was willing to do anything to get him back. Sauron perhaps realised how powerful Melkor was and so though that if he was going to take over, then he'd need Melkor to do it. Perhaps that is why he made the one ring, to try and increase his own power as he was robbed of Melkor.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it’s the best explanation I could think of for the actual making of the ring. Look at it from Sauron's point of view, he'd think to himself
"Without Melkor I need more power, Why not make a ring? Why not go mad?"

I know a lot of this has been said, but this is what i think. Using Melkor as a symbol seems unlikely. Whether it was at this point or not, but I think its Gandalf who says;

The only measure known to Sauron is desire, desire for power...

This shows that Sauron would probably try to get power at any cost, even if that meant becoming second best for a time. I suspect that, soon enough, he would have devised a plan to over through Melkor, as Sauron was a cunning little Miar, so If he had released Morgoth (If he realised there was no other way he could win) he would have planned to overthrow him once he had done the hard work for him... what an evil little creature he is. >=D.

[Orcrist]

morgoth and melkor are the same person right? sorry i still have to read the silmarillion

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

And Ar-Pharazôn said: "Who is this Lord of Darkness?"
Then...Sauron spoke to the King...saying: "...his name is Melkor..."

(The Silmarillion, Akallabêth - emphasis mine)

Sauron had more purpose for Morgoth outside Arda than in it. Very, very clever...

So still, Sauron wants Morgoth where he is, not running wild all over Middle-earth. It could very well wreck his plans.

[doug*platypus]

First of all, I don't believe that Sauron actually needed Morgoth to return. He was in a pretty good position throughout the Second and Third Ages. True, he did need to create the One Ring, which eventually provided the means to destroy him, but it was only at the very end that this weakness was exploited. Sauron did not have to deal with the foes that Morgoth had in the First Age: heroes like Fingolfin, Beren, Húrin, Finrod by the dozens, and Noldor by the thousands (at least). Sauron was more than up to the challenge of dominating men, through the use of both other men and fearsome spirits such as the Nazgûl, and there were relatively few powerful Eldar to oppose him.

Secondly, I don't believe Sauron had the loyalty to feel an obligation to release his (former?) master. In the example of Ossë and Ulmo we see the nature of the relationship between the Valar and their Maiar. It is not one of complete servitude or devotion, at least not in all instances. Curumo and Sauron both defied Aulë, and even Olórin was not completely faithful to Lórien, preferring to consort with Nienna instead.

So my answer is NO, Sauron would not have released Morgoth from the Void, and had no intention of trying. And I bet that's the first thing Morgoth brings up when they meet again after Sauron's departure from Middle-Earth! That is where Sauron was sent, right?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

We can only assume that Sauron was sent to the void after his downfall. Saruman too. but that has been discussed elsewhere.

As you say, If Sauron was sent to the void, he would first deal with Saurman's tertiary (This is all assuming that they were al sent together into the void) and then would he would have to worry about Melkor's judgement on him. So this whole topic is based on the assumption that Sauron could bring Melko back, so he would have to suffer the consequences that Melkor would throw at him (That’s if there is any thing to throw in the void). Although, If sauron had realised that Frodo was bout to destroy the ring and there was nothing he could do about it, he may have brought Melkor back as a last resort.