Gothmog vs. Sauron

[Eönwë]

Since I know how fond everyone is of these "vs" threads lately, I think I'll go with one I've been thinking of for a while now.

The question- who would be better in a fight?

We constantly hear of Sauron being second in command to Morgoth, yet it is Gothmog who leads the armies. It takes a great elven warrior to kill Gothmog, whereas Sauron could have been killed by a dog (however great he was).

What do you think?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

We constantly hear of Sauron being second in command to Morgoth, yet it is Gothmog who leads the armies. It takes a great elven warrior to kill Gothmog, whereas Sauron could have been killed by a dog (however great he was).

Well, as I am not a huge fan of these "who would win" things, I would only comment here several things: Sauron was, first of all, a Sorcerer. A Necromancer. THE Necromancer (I have the feeling I wrote something very similar just recently). I think maybe in a sword fight, or whatever, if it were a duel where no "spells" can be used, Gothmog may have been the winner. However, at the moment when Sauron would encounter Gothmog on the Bridge of Khazad-Dum and there was no other way for him, so they would have to fight, but there were no things to restrain Sauron from using all his power, I cannot really say about the outcome. It would depend mainly on the creativity of the two, where I think Sauron had that and a good spot for using the right things to his advantage, I think. Possibly.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

We constantly hear of Sauron being second in command to Morgoth, yet it is Gothmog who leads the armies. It takes a great elven warrior to kill Gothmog, whereas Sauron could have been killed by a dog (however great he was).

I wouldn't always associate prowess with rank.

Second in Commands, to put it in anachronistic terms, often function as Executive Officers or Staff Chiefs, while the actual units are commanded by people subordinate to both the commander and his second. It has been this way for a long time, across many cultures.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I wouldn't always associate prowess with rank.

Second in Commands, to put it in anachronistic terms, often function as Executive Officers or Staff Chiefs, while the actual units are commanded by people subordinate to both the commander and his second. It has been this way for a long time, across many cultures.

Well, yes that is true. Morgoth is the "commander" and Sauron his "Executive Officers" as you put it. But they would have needed to have good fighters. Sauron is more the strategic, non-fighter type (I don't think he actually fought in any of Morgoth's wars) whereas Gothmog is a superwarrior.

And think about this: The Valar are the highest ranking of all, yet Eönwë () is the "greatest of arms in Arda."

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

And think about this: The Valar are the highest ranking of all, yet Eönwë () is the "greatest of arms in Arda."

And nobody could beat Tulkas.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

And nobody could beat Tulkas.

And neither is he the greatest of the Valar.

[Andsigil]

That's kind of my point.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

It takes a great elven warrior to kill Gothmog, whereas Sauron could have been killed by a dog (however great he was).

I'm not sure that Huan would be able to kill Sauron. He just took his physical form away. Sauron is a Maia, so it's not that simple to "kill"him. I don't think he was ever killed; when the Ring was destroyed he was just weakened too much for hi to begin anew. Also, Huan was not exactly a plain dog - it says that in his barking you could hear Orome's horn. It's like a bit of ORoe is inside Huan, and Orome is more powerful than Sauron, being a Valar.

[Almesiva Moonshadow]

Also,Huan could have been a Maia in the form of a wolfhound,since we all
know Maiar can change their form,or no?
It could have been a Maiar in the service of Orome,who took a form of a wolfhound,
and might have been equal or even more powerfull then Sauron,them beign both
of the same order...
...I know it sounds unlikely but...Maiar can take the forms of animals
and humans alike so...

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I'm not sure that Huan would be able to kill Sauron. He just took his physical form away. Sauron is a Maia, so it's not that simple to "kill"him. I don't think he was ever killed; ...

But this distinction can be raised with respect to the Elves, for example. Death is the separation of body and spirit, not the annihilation of the spirit. The Elves were slain, so was Sauron. In a sense it might be said that one can't 'kill' a Man if it is believed his spirit continues outside the Circles of the World.


As for Huan being a Maia-spirit or not, I think (from what I recall!) the 'evidence' is just as inconclusive as with some of the eagles.

[Galadriel55]

Ainur are not the same as elves, though, in this respect. It is true that the Fea of elves never dies, but they are "dead" to the outside world when they go to the Halls of Mandos. Maiar don't need to have a physical form, but they become people or animals (like Almesiva Moonshadow said), so that to become closer with Arda and Eruhini. They can exist in Arda without a body, though. An elve's fea would not be able to do that. When it is separated fro the body, it goes straight to Mandos.
During the Fall of Numenor, Sauron lost soe of his power - he could not change his physical form at will anymore. When Isildur chopped off the Ring, he lost almost all of his power and was not able to take a physical form again (it is possible that he would regain that power if he got the Ring back, but I'm not sure about this).

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

They can exist in Arda without a body, though. An elve's fea would not be able to do that. When it is separated fro the body, it goes straight to Mandos.

Not necessarily - it's not like Mandos has some great spiritual vacuum-cleaner that sucks all bodiless fëar into his halls willy-nilly. He summons them, but while most elvish fëar will obey the summons, they all have the freedom to refuse it, and some do, roaming Middle-earth in their disembodied state. It can be speculated that at least some (maybe most?) of the spirits Sauron conjured and misused in his necromany were such 'houseless' elvish fëar (probably of Avarin origin).

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

When Isildur chopped off the Ring, he lost almost all of his power and was not able to take a physical form again (it is possible that he would regain that power if he got the Ring back, but I'm not sure about this).

That's one of the many popular misconceptions spread by the movies. According to the book, Sauron had regained his physical form at the time of the War of the Ring. Gollum met him in the flesh and told Frodo and Sam that 'He has only nine fingers on his black hand'.

[Galadriel55]

You are probably right, Pitchwife, but for some reason I always thought that Sauron needed the Ring to get back the power to create a body for himself. I don't trust the movies one jot; that idea of mine came from the books. A long time ago I decided for myself that Gollum didn't really see Sauron's body. According to me what really happened is that what remained of Sauron's power and will was still so great, that Gollum saw a vision of how Sauron would look like when he was brought before him. Since the missing finger was a big part of who Sauron is (cause he wore the Ring on it, etc), Gollum would have seen only 9 fingers. Sauron's Eye doesn't really exist, like it does in the movie. It is Frodo's metaphor for Sauron's power when he's searching, because that is when Frodo felt it most before he came close to Mordor.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Ainur are not the same as elves, though, in this respect. It is true that the Fea of elves never dies, but they are "dead" to the outside world when they go to the Halls of Mandos. Maiar don't need to have a physical form, but they become people or animals (like Almesiva Moonshadow said), so that to become closer with Arda and Eruhini. They can exist in Arda without a body, though. An elve's fea would not be able to do that. When it is separated fro the body, it goes straight to Mandos.

As noted by Pitchwife (and me in another recent thread) the Elven fea can refuse the summons of Mandos and 'haunt' Middle-earth.

You posted that you don't think Sauron was ever killed, and seem to have a problem with using this, or similar terms. OK but I don't think we need to worry about other factors that might be raised, in order to use these terms that is: when Sauron's body and spirit are separated, I think we can say he has been slain. Tolkien doesn't feel the need for quotation marks, for example: 'Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron.' (JRRT, letter 131)

As Pitchwife also noted, Sauron was physical again in the Third Age. He could rebuild his body because the Ring existed. Letter 200 (begins) 'I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished.'

There's other text regarding the body of Sauron in the Third Age, but letter 200 is a good example (the full letter if one has Letters of JRRT).

[Galadriel55]

Perhaps so. However, even from your words, Huan didn't really kill Sauron, as Eonwe said in the beginning of the thread. Vanquished=defeated, concoured; not necessarily slain. He lost his power and his body when he was defeated, but was he really killed by Huan?
Moreover, it says in The Sil that the only reason why Sauron left his body in Huan's possession is because he couldn't escape otherwise, and he left it on free will - Huan didn't really force him to do that.
Plus, it is said that Huan must battle the mightiest of all the wolves to ever exist before he would be killed. Sauron, taking the shape of a very large wolf but not being the mightiest, could not possibly defeat Huan. So even if in reality Huan may be weaker than Sauron, in this fight Sauron didn't have a chance of winning, because of the prophecy. Yes, I know that when describing it I said "killed" and not "concoured". Sauron's goal was to kill Huan: he thought he would be able to do the prophecy. Not only defeat, but kill.

This probably makes no sense whatsoever, but these are the best arguments I can present for the case at the moment.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

It takes a great elven warrior to kill Gothmog, whereas Sauron could have been killed by a dog (however great he was).

Well. That 'dog' was one of the mightiest hounds of Oromë. Perhaps Huan could have killed Ecthelion in a fight. Who knows? He is a dog, yes, but he's a powerful Wolf-hound.

Either way, I think Gothmog was more, er, 'courageous' than Sauron. I wold say Sauron relies more on wiles than strength. Gothmog, on the other hand, relies on war tactics and brute strength. So, in my opinion, Gothmog would win.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

I wold say Sauron relies more on wiles than strength. Gothmog, on the other hand, relies on war tactics and brute strength.

true, that. Sauron might have more power, though. But it probably doesn't matter that much, since Tulkas was able to overcome Melkor the mightiest in a wrestling match.

Originally Posted by Galadriel

So, in my opinion, Gothmog would win.

Yes, if they have a physical combat. Sauron might try and sing Gothmog to death, though. How would this sound: "...And Gothmog fell before the throne"?

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

true, that. Sauron might have more power, though. But it probably doesn't matter that much, since Tulkas was able to overcome Melkor the mightiest is a wrestling match.



Yes, if they have a physical combat. Sauron might try and sing Gothmog to death, though. How would this sound: "...And Gothmog fell before the throne"?

In response to your question: it doesn't sound too bad, but it sounds as if Morgoth just banished him from Angband

Haha. Sing? I can picture it as this:

Sauron: I shall vanquish you!
Gothmog: Um...ok...
Sauron: Lalalalalala!
Gothmog: *brings mace down on Sauron's head* You are so annoying...