Ring of fire, Ring of Air, Ring of ?

[Alfirin]

I was wondering about something. Given the fact that each of the three eleven rings is associated with an element (Narya is referred to as the ring of fire, Villia as the ring of water, and Nenya as that of air) does anyone else get a feeling that it was orginally Celembrimbor's interntion to craft four eleven rings, that is to make a ring of earth as well. I can even vagely imagine such a ring and what it would look like; it's stone color probably green (I would even go so far as to imagine that said stone would be of similar substance to that which makes up Aragorn's Ellesar (a really fun idea for a fanfic would be the implication that that is what the ellesary orginally was, intended rough for the stone to be set in the Earth ring, and only later re-classified as a sutible token for the King of free men. well what do the rest of you think?

[Gordis]

Slight correction: Vilya is the Ring of Air, and Nenya is of Water.

I think you have a very interesting idea there, Alfirin!. I have considered the connection of the Rings to elements as well, and here is what I think.

There are not four elements found in most philosophies, but five: Earth, Water, Air, Fire + something referring to the Spirit world: Aether or "non-matter" or "Void" etc.

The Greek Classical Elements (Earth, Water, Air, Fire, and Aether) date from pre-Socratic times and persisted throughout the Middle Ages and into the Renaissance, deeply influencing European thought and culture. The Roman Catholic Church supported the Aristotelian concept of aether because it supported the Christian view of earthly life as impermanent and heaven as eternal. The Hindu and Japanese also had essentially the same five elements: the four states-of-matter, plus a fifth element to describe that which was beyond the material world (non-matter or Void).

In Tolkien's Arda, Spirit World (Shadow World, the Invisible) exists parallel to the ordinary, physical, one (the World of Light) - like another side of one coin. So the concept of Aether would fit into the ME philosophy nicely.

I think that all the Rings may have been associated with each of the 5 elements:
Vilya with Air
Nenya with Water
Narya with Fire
The Seven Rings all associated with Earth
The Nine Rings all associated with Aether.

And indeed, we don't even know whether there were noticeable differences either between the rings within the Seven or between those of the Nine. Therefore all the Seven and all the Nine could constitute one entity each.

Dwarven Rings surely made Dwarves think of Earthly matters: collecting gold and wealth, mining of mithril, maybe they also helped in the craft.

The properties of the Nine Rings, (barring preservation, which is the property of all the Rings alike) seem to be connected mostly with the Spirit World, with Aether. The Nine cause psychological effects on the wielders and the surrounding people.

So, no - no additional Rings were necessary. All the elements had their Rings.

[Alfirin]

yeah sorry about that, I always get Nenya and Vilia confused, probably because to me, blue is the color or water (the blue sea) and white that of air (air is invisible), not the other way around. I can of course see the logic of the other way round (the sky is blue, and water is, in and of itself colorless).
The Japanese use aether (or as I learned it, "spirit") as the fifth element? I always assumed that they used the Chinese system, where element five is metal, which is seperate from earth (or is it that earth is divided into metal and wood, my mind seems to be confused on the subject)
On a related note what do you think the stones in the rings are. Galadriel specifcally refers to her ring as being the ring of adamant so it fairly safe to assume a diamond. The ovios idea is that the other two are a sapphire and a ruby, but they could be diamonds as well, as diamonds do come in colors (the Hope (blue) being an obvios example, along with such famous exmaples as the Dresden (green) the Tiffany (yellow) and the Hancock (purply-red). A part of me almost wants to believe they are all diamonds if not a type of elf gem more pure and perfect than any found in nature. Certainly each stones is proably truly exceptional; Vilia's diamond is probably waht in the gem trade is often referred to as a "Golconda" Narya's stone if a ruby is likely a "pigeon's blood" ruby and Nenya Sapphire likey makes the finest stones of Kashmir look grey.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Dwarven Rings surely made Dwarves think of Earthly matters: collecting gold and wealth, mining of mithril, maybe they also helped in the craft.

Exactly, also, fire, air and water are the three major components of earth. It would seem a bit redundant to make a ring of earth.

EDIT: Oh, you already pointed that out, Gordis. I guess I'm the redundent one here.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by Gordis

There are not four elements found in most philosophies, but five: Earth, Water, Air, Fire +

Slight correction;





Back to the matter in hand;

This matter did niggle me once upon a time. I had thought that the One Ring was very much the 'earth ring', as it were. (Given wheat Gordis has said, I'm more inclined to agree with him, but I feel it nice to explain this theory as well)...
Sauron's desire was to rule Middle Earth. He wanted it to bend to his will. Looking at the land of Mordor we can see that this extended even to the ruin of the earth itself. Not simply ruling the things living on it, but the land itself. It struck me that perhaps it was his intention to use the power of the ring to 'wither all woods'. Thus the Ring would give him power over the earth itself and therefore, you may say, was the Ring of earth.

Another line of thinking is that Tolkien thought; wind, fire, water and earth was cliché .

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

Slight correction;

LOL.

I am no expert on old philosophies. You better google "Four elements" and "Five elements" to learn much more.
I gather Tolkien mostly took into account the European (originally Greek) tradition of Air, Water, Fire, Earth and Aether. Especially considering that the Roman Catholic Church backed it. Japanese-Chinese beliefs were more alien to him, I guess.

As for the stones, it is stated (somewhere) that Nenya had an adamant, Narya a ruby and Vilya a sapphire. Nenya was made of mithril, the rest of gold. Every one of the Seven and the Nine had its own stone, but we are not told which ones.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I suppose that Art must also be considered: "Four rings for the Elven kings" just doesn't sound quite as nice as "Three rings for the Elven kings." Then again, that's just Sauron, writing his binding-verse, and he never appears to have even considered that one of the Three was never owned by an Elven king, lord, or even male (other than its maker, Celebrimbor).

I have also suspected, rather more seriously, that Tolkien went for three rather than four as a symbolic nod to the Trinity; he does admit, after all, that he rather intentionally thought of lembas as something akin to the viaticum of communion, which was why is became so strengthening and sustaining the more it was a person's sole nourishment. This would seem to fall into that same kind of symbolic (not allegorical) thought. Then again, he may have started off with a thing for prime numbers, until he got to the Nine.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

LOL.

I am no expert on old philosophies. You better google "Four elements" and "Five elements" to learn much more.
I gather Tolkien mostly took into account the European (originally Greek) tradition of Air, Water, Fire, Earth and Aether. Especially considering that the Roman Catholic Church backed it. Japanese-Chinese beliefs were more alien to him, I guess.

As for the stones, it is stated (somewhere) that Nenya had an adamant, Narya a ruby and Vilya a sapphire. Nenya was made of mithril, the rest of gold. Every one of the Seven and the Nine had its own stone, but we are not told which ones.

That table's the Pratchett-Discworld one right, the one worked out by Wen the Eternally Surpised?

Okay, so the blue and red stones are specifed as being a ruby and sapphire. okay I withdraw the "three diamonds" theroy, though I do feel it is imcumbent of me to make mention of the fact that until reltively recent times (when technology allowed them to be differentiated) stones were usually assigned their identity based soley on color; any stone that was the right red was assumed to be a ruby, the right shades of green a emerlad etc. (this is why the giant stone in the british crown is called the "black prince's ruby", even though it is tecnically a spinel. Actually when someon did a study of the major sizable historic rubies in the crown jewels of europe, none ) of them turned out to actually be rubies (the few that weren't spinels were garnets) if Middle earth also classifies by color alone than a red diaons would be thought a ruby and a blue one a sapphire. Final fun aside, when the conquistadors first sacked the aztec empire the found in the treasury chuncks of truly incredible emerald (the cream of the mines of Colombia). However at that itme it was believed that emeralds were as hard and tough as diamonds so to test them the conqustadors smashed them with hammers, when the shattered they assumed what they had found was glass and discarded it. (all those fine emeralds you see in cargoes of ships like the Atocha came later after a conqustador who was actually familar with stones happen to be in a party.