Gildor's got a gun - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

alatar · 06-09-2009, 10:23 AM

Frodo, Sam and Pip, leaving the Shire for Buckland, are pursued what what they call, "Black Riders." Not knowing what they are, though Frodo suspects, the three flee them as they can, and hide when possible while they make their way East.

But before they even leave the Shire, it appears that their luck may have run out, as a Black Rider approaches yet again, and Frodo starts listening to the Call of both the Riders and the Ring. Just as the Rider approaches...there's singing, and elves appear nearby.

The Black Rider flees, and the three hobbits make off to their (and our) first encounter with elves. We meet Gildor Inglorion, and though he is apprehensive at the mention of Black Riders, it seems that he and the other elves have a strength, a strength that would turn back the Black Riders.

Later we meet yet another, mayhap even more powerful, elf. Glorfindel (of Rivendell, not to be mistaken for his other namesake) faced down the Witch-King and cohorts both at the Battle of Fornost (Third Age 1975) and years later at the Fords of Bruinen.

Both of these elves seem capable of handling at least one of the Black Riders.

So why, in the history of Middle Earth, did the 'good' never contemplate assassinating any of the evil sides' more prominent minions? Sure, taking out Melkor or Sauron may be beyond the abilities of those present in Middle Earth, but what about the Witch-King? And, sure, we have Glorfindel's prophecy and all, but what of the others? Why didn't Elrond or Galadriel or Saruman put a 'hit' on Gothmog?

Merry's 'sword,' found in the barrow, was specially meant for just such a task. Someone - human - was thinking along these lines, and human-human assassination took place, and so the concept was there.

Think of the snickering that Arwen could have done at the Fords (think Peter Jackson's version for a moment) when only eight appeared on the other side of the river.

Inziladun · 06-09-2009, 12:23 PM

The fact that at least some of the remaining Elves, especially those of the Noldor, had the power to fend off or destroy any of Sauron's servants individually (if not Sauron himself) seems evident to me. However, we do not indeed see any use of such power by them, the most gifted of the Children still in mortal lands.
Gildor's excuse for himself and his group was basically that the affairs of Middle-earth were no longer their business. I suppose it does seem a bit of a cop-out, but I think it was essentially true. They were destined to give way to the Aftercomers. They knew it, and the Last Alliance was their last hurrah.
Glorfindel acted only as a guide for the last few miles to Rivendell. To be fair, he was facing all Nine by the time they reached the Ford, and Gandalf himself did not think Glorfindel and Aragorn combined had any chance against them all.
So why did they not take action against the greatest minions of Evil?
For one thing, there don't appear to be many Elves left who were capable of standing toe to toe with the likes of the Witch-king or the Mouth of Sauron. Gandalf said there were few, even in Rivendell, who could ride openly against the Nine, and if they weren't in Rivendell, that pretty much leaves only Celeborn and Galadriel.
After the Last Alliance it appears most of the High Elves were gone, either killed in battle or removed to the West. Those that were left, I think, knew that their time of action was past, and their place then was to give council and refuge such as they could to the enemies of Sauron who were taking the fight to him.
Also, as a point of feasibilty, how would Glorfindel or Gildor go about these assassinations?
The first step would be to locate their target, a pretty questionable business on its own (unless the Witch-king had a MySpace page with some useful photos and comments left by his buddies Shelob, Gothmog, and the Mouth of Sauron, whom they all call 'Moz'

)
Even if they knew where one of the higher-ups was likely to be, the location would probably have been Mordor or Minas Morgul, and those don't seem like the sorts of places one could just walk into boldly with at most a handful of companions, and go searching about with abandon, even if they were on Manwë's Buddy List in the Blessed Realm thousands of years before.

Rumil · 06-09-2009, 12:29 PM

We..eeell,

If I remember the last (but one-ish?) King of Gondor did his best to off the Witchking, which ended badly, and Glorfindel's prophecy may have put potential Nazgulicidal types off.

I guess for much of their existance they would be either a dark memory in the West, or busy running big Sauronic fortresses like Dol Guldur or Angmar, therefore only to be encountered after a victorious battle.

Gandalf seems to have had a go at Weathertop, but without any lasting effect on the Nazgul, though perhaps he was limited by the Maiar power-limitation-thing.

alatar · 06-09-2009, 12:46 PM

Okay, just so we're not limiting the discussion, we don't have to consider only the Nazgul or the Third Age. Was there ever an event where the 'good' side decided to put a hit (successful or not) on someone on the other side (human royal affairs not withstanding)?

Gandalf was able to infiltrate Dol Guldur - twice, I think. Couldn't someone have done the same and taken out 'someone?!?'

Why so passive/reactive?

Even to inconvenience Sauron now and then by removing his 'Mouth' would have been of some worth, if not just to annoy.

Aiwendil · 06-09-2009, 01:13 PM

It's worth noting that Glorfindel was a rather exceptional Elf - a captain of Gondolin who had already slain a Balrog and who had been reincarnated and sent back to Middle-earth. His reincarnation, in particular, Tolkien seems to consider to have imparted him with a special power beyond that normally given to the Eldar (see the late Glorfindel essays in HoMe XII).

Gildor is certainly of lesser power than Glorfindel, but then his company obviously outnumbered the lone Nazgul. Add to this a few other considerations: Gildor and his companions were apparently Noldor, with the light of Aman in their eyes, rather than run of the mill, as it were, Sindar/Nandor/Avari; the Black Rider was far from Mordor and his power may have been diminished; the Black Rider was possibly trying for secrecy and may have wanted to avoid announcing his presence in that part of the world with a big battle against a company of Elves.

This doesn't undermine the premise of Alatar's question, but I think that, all things considered, the Nazgul probably were quite formidable opponents and there may have been few Elves or Men (or Women!) who were a match for them.

alatar · 06-09-2009, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

This doesn't undermine the premise of Alatar's question, but I think that, all things considered, the Nazgul probably were quite formidable opponents and there may have been few Elves or Men (or Women!) who were a match for them.

This doesn't have to be the 'James Bond Fan Club;' we don't have to utilize lone assassins but could have groups or posses. Elrond rightly so sent only Nine Walkers against the Nine Riders and the One Big Eye. More would not have necessarily achieved the goal and, as put, may have only aroused the might of Mordor.

What about a small band of Rohirrim putting the hit on Saruman - especially after the death of Theodred?

mark12_30 · 06-09-2009, 01:15 PM

Fingolfin.

Eönwë · 06-09-2009, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

Okay, just so we're not limiting the discussion, we don't have to consider only the Nazgul or the Third Age. Was there ever an event where the 'good' side decided to put a hit (successful or not) on someone on the other side (human royal affairs not withstanding)?

Well, since LOTR and in fact, the entire legendarium is based on what people knew, it could be that there were a few low-profile attacks that were just counted as "mysterious disappearances in the hands of the enemy" or something. There wouldn't be any survivors on the "good" side to record the events. We only hear of Fingolfin because of the special circumstances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

Gandalf was able to infiltrate Dol Guldur - twice, I think. Couldn't someone have done the same and taken out 'someone?!?'

I don't think so. Gandalf's mission relied on stealth. If someone was found dead he would hhave had to deal with the entirety of Dol Guldur (I assume it was reasonably well-armed as a fortress), which is no mean feat, even for a Maia (especially one in a limited form).

alatar · 06-09-2009, 01:52 PM

The accuracy of elven arrows is legendary...at least to me. One long shot...one kill.

Why not an interdiction force, like Turin and his band, that harassed the enemy? Take that one step further, not just taking the low hanging fruit of casual encounters with orcs and ilk, but plan a small attack with the goal of elimination one or more individuals.

The larger question is why the elves and even men 'awaited' attack, except, like when the Númenóreans came ashore, are in force?

Hakon · 06-09-2009, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

The accuracy of elven arrows is legendary...at least to me. One long shot...one kill.

I doubt one arrow would be able to kill a Nazgul. The Nazgul normally stayed together in groups and were powerful enough on their own. As Gandalf put it few could ride against the nine. It is not like Elrond or Legolas could just walk up to a Nazgul and kill it.

Jeff sums it up pretty well. Sauron and Morgoth both share the same goal, to dominate all not to assassinate. Also an elf as an assassin seems really out of place. I don't think Tolkien would have even thought of anything close to that.

JeffF. · 06-09-2009, 02:04 PM

By this time not many of the Noldor who made the journey to Aman and saw the Light of the Trees would have been left. As Gandalf described Glorfindel those elves who saw that light had a power in the unseen world that Dark Elves did not. Most of the remaining Noldor would have been those born in Middle Earth and never saw the Light. As Glorfindel told Aragorn there were few even in Rivendell who could ride openly against the Nine.

Obviously assassination was not a tactic that would occur to the 'Good' but thinking back through the books it does not seem to be a tactic used by Morgoth or Sauron either. It is not the taking of the lives of those opposed to them that is their objective what they cannot tolerate is Free Will. Morgoth and Sauron must dominate everything and everyone and to do that they don't assassinate. Think of Hurin, captured after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, this most powerful warrior of men is twisted and corrupted rather than outright killed.

The Lord of the Nazgul could easily have killed Frodo with the thrust of his Morgul blade instead he wounds him in a way that will bring Frodo under his will. both sides kill in open battle and in duels (Fingolfin and Morgoth - elendil/Gil-galad and Sauron) when necessary but assassination is not a method for either side.

06-09-2009, 10:23 AM	#1
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Gildor's got a gun Frodo, Sam and Pip, leaving the Shire for Buckland, are pursued what what they call, "Black Riders." Not knowing what they are, though Frodo suspects, the three flee them as they can, and hide when possible while they make their way East. But before they even leave the Shire, it appears that their luck may have run out, as a Black Rider approaches yet again, and Frodo starts listening to the Call of both the Riders and the Ring. Just as the Rider approaches...there's singing, and elves appear nearby. The Black Rider flees, and the three hobbits make off to their (and our) first encounter with elves. We meet Gildor Inglorion, and though he is apprehensive at the mention of Black Riders, it seems that he and the other elves have a strength, a strength that would turn back the Black Riders. Later we meet yet another, mayhap even more powerful, elf. Glorfindel (of Rivendell, not to be mistaken for his other namesake) faced down the Witch-King and cohorts both at the Battle of Fornost (Third Age 1975) and years later at the Fords of Bruinen. Both of these elves seem capable of handling at least one of the Black Riders. So why, in the history of Middle Earth, did the 'good' never contemplate assassinating any of the evil sides' more prominent minions? Sure, taking out Melkor or Sauron may be beyond the abilities of those present in Middle Earth, but what about the Witch-King? And, sure, we have Glorfindel's prophecy and all, but what of the others? Why didn't Elrond or Galadriel or Saruman put a 'hit' on Gothmog? Merry's 'sword,' found in the barrow, was specially meant for just such a task. Someone - human - was thinking along these lines, and human-human assassination took place, and so the concept was there. Think of the snickering that Arwen could have done at the Fords (think Peter Jackson's version for a moment) when only eight appeared on the other side of the river. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

06-09-2009, 12:23 PM	#2
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,039	The fact that at least some of the remaining Elves, especially those of the Noldor, had the power to fend off or destroy any of Sauron's servants individually (if not Sauron himself) seems evident to me. However, we do not indeed see any use of such power by them, the most gifted of the Children still in mortal lands. Gildor's excuse for himself and his group was basically that the affairs of Middle-earth were no longer their business. I suppose it does seem a bit of a cop-out, but I think it was essentially true. They were destined to give way to the Aftercomers. They knew it, and the Last Alliance was their last hurrah. Glorfindel acted only as a guide for the last few miles to Rivendell. To be fair, he was facing all Nine by the time they reached the Ford, and Gandalf himself did not think Glorfindel and Aragorn combined had any chance against them all. So why did they not take action against the greatest minions of Evil? For one thing, there don't appear to be many Elves left who were capable of standing toe to toe with the likes of the Witch-king or the Mouth of Sauron. Gandalf said there were few, even in Rivendell, who could ride openly against the Nine, and if they weren't in Rivendell, that pretty much leaves only Celeborn and Galadriel. After the Last Alliance it appears most of the High Elves were gone, either killed in battle or removed to the West. Those that were left, I think, knew that their time of action was past, and their place then was to give council and refuge such as they could to the enemies of Sauron who were taking the fight to him. Also, as a point of feasibilty, how would Glorfindel or Gildor go about these assassinations? The first step would be to locate their target, a pretty questionable business on its own (unless the Witch-king had a MySpace page with some useful photos and comments left by his buddies Shelob, Gothmog, and the Mouth of Sauron, whom they all call 'Moz' ) Even if they knew where one of the higher-ups was likely to be, the location would probably have been Mordor or Minas Morgul, and those don't seem like the sorts of places one could just walk into boldly with at most a handful of companions, and go searching about with abandon, even if they were on Manwë's Buddy List in the Blessed Realm thousands of years before. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God. Last edited by Inziladun; 06-09-2009 at 12:26 PM.

06-09-2009, 12:29 PM	#3
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	One down, eight to go We..eeell, If I remember the last (but one-ish?) King of Gondor did his best to off the Witchking, which ended badly, and Glorfindel's prophecy may have put potential Nazgulicidal types off. I guess for much of their existance they would be either a dark memory in the West, or busy running big Sauronic fortresses like Dol Guldur or Angmar, therefore only to be encountered after a victorious battle. Gandalf seems to have had a go at Weathertop, but without any lasting effect on the Nazgul, though perhaps he was limited by the Maiar power-limitation-thing. __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

06-09-2009, 12:46 PM	#4
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Okay, just so we're not limiting the discussion, we don't have to consider only the Nazgul or the Third Age. Was there ever an event where the 'good' side decided to put a hit (successful or not) on someone on the other side (human royal affairs not withstanding)? Gandalf was able to infiltrate Dol Guldur - twice, I think. Couldn't someone have done the same and taken out 'someone?!?' Why so passive/reactive? Even to inconvenience Sauron now and then by removing his 'Mouth' would have been of some worth, if not just to annoy. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

06-09-2009, 01:15 PM	#7
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Fingolfin. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

06-09-2009, 01:13 PM	#5
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	It's worth noting that Glorfindel was a rather exceptional Elf - a captain of Gondolin who had already slain a Balrog and who had been reincarnated and sent back to Middle-earth. His reincarnation, in particular, Tolkien seems to consider to have imparted him with a special power beyond that normally given to the Eldar (see the late Glorfindel essays in HoMe XII). Gildor is certainly of lesser power than Glorfindel, but then his company obviously outnumbered the lone Nazgul. Add to this a few other considerations: Gildor and his companions were apparently Noldor, with the light of Aman in their eyes, rather than run of the mill, as it were, Sindar/Nandor/Avari; the Black Rider was far from Mordor and his power may have been diminished; the Black Rider was possibly trying for secrecy and may have wanted to avoid announcing his presence in that part of the world with a big battle against a company of Elves. This doesn't undermine the premise of Alatar's question, but I think that, all things considered, the Nazgul probably were quite formidable opponents and there may have been few Elves or Men (or Women!) who were a match for them.

06-09-2009, 01:52 PM	#9
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	The accuracy of elven arrows is legendary...at least to me. One long shot...one kill. Why not an interdiction force, like Turin and his band, that harassed the enemy? Take that one step further, not just taking the low hanging fruit of casual encounters with orcs and ilk, but plan a small attack with the goal of elimination one or more individuals. The larger question is why the elves and even men 'awaited' attack, except, like when the Númenóreans came ashore, are in force? __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

06-09-2009, 02:04 PM	#11
JeffF. Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 70	Power of the Light Elves By this time not many of the Noldor who made the journey to Aman and saw the Light of the Trees would have been left. As Gandalf described Glorfindel those elves who saw that light had a power in the unseen world that Dark Elves did not. Most of the remaining Noldor would have been those born in Middle Earth and never saw the Light. As Glorfindel told Aragorn there were few even in Rivendell who could ride openly against the Nine. Obviously assassination was not a tactic that would occur to the 'Good' but thinking back through the books it does not seem to be a tactic used by Morgoth or Sauron either. It is not the taking of the lives of those opposed to them that is their objective what they cannot tolerate is Free Will. Morgoth and Sauron must dominate everything and everyone and to do that they don't assassinate. Think of Hurin, captured after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, this most powerful warrior of men is twisted and corrupted rather than outright killed. The Lord of the Nazgul could easily have killed Frodo with the thrust of his Morgul blade instead he wounds him in a way that will bring Frodo under his will. both sides kill in open battle and in duels (Fingolfin and Morgoth - elendil/Gil-galad and Sauron) when necessary but assassination is not a method for either side. __________________ JeffF(Fingolfin)