Gildor's got a gun - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

alatar · 06-09-2009, 12:46 PM

Okay, just so we're not limiting the discussion, we don't have to consider only the Nazgul or the Third Age. Was there ever an event where the 'good' side decided to put a hit (successful or not) on someone on the other side (human royal affairs not withstanding)?

Gandalf was able to infiltrate Dol Guldur - twice, I think. Couldn't someone have done the same and taken out 'someone?!?'

Why so passive/reactive?

Even to inconvenience Sauron now and then by removing his 'Mouth' would have been of some worth, if not just to annoy.

Aiwendil · 06-09-2009, 01:13 PM

It's worth noting that Glorfindel was a rather exceptional Elf - a captain of Gondolin who had already slain a Balrog and who had been reincarnated and sent back to Middle-earth. His reincarnation, in particular, Tolkien seems to consider to have imparted him with a special power beyond that normally given to the Eldar (see the late Glorfindel essays in HoMe XII).

Gildor is certainly of lesser power than Glorfindel, but then his company obviously outnumbered the lone Nazgul. Add to this a few other considerations: Gildor and his companions were apparently Noldor, with the light of Aman in their eyes, rather than run of the mill, as it were, Sindar/Nandor/Avari; the Black Rider was far from Mordor and his power may have been diminished; the Black Rider was possibly trying for secrecy and may have wanted to avoid announcing his presence in that part of the world with a big battle against a company of Elves.

This doesn't undermine the premise of Alatar's question, but I think that, all things considered, the Nazgul probably were quite formidable opponents and there may have been few Elves or Men (or Women!) who were a match for them.

alatar · 06-09-2009, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

This doesn't undermine the premise of Alatar's question, but I think that, all things considered, the Nazgul probably were quite formidable opponents and there may have been few Elves or Men (or Women!) who were a match for them.

This doesn't have to be the 'James Bond Fan Club;' we don't have to utilize lone assassins but could have groups or posses. Elrond rightly so sent only Nine Walkers against the Nine Riders and the One Big Eye. More would not have necessarily achieved the goal and, as put, may have only aroused the might of Mordor.

What about a small band of Rohirrim putting the hit on Saruman - especially after the death of Theodred?

mark12_30 · 06-09-2009, 01:15 PM

Fingolfin.

Eönwë · 06-09-2009, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

Okay, just so we're not limiting the discussion, we don't have to consider only the Nazgul or the Third Age. Was there ever an event where the 'good' side decided to put a hit (successful or not) on someone on the other side (human royal affairs not withstanding)?

Well, since LOTR and in fact, the entire legendarium is based on what people knew, it could be that there were a few low-profile attacks that were just counted as "mysterious disappearances in the hands of the enemy" or something. There wouldn't be any survivors on the "good" side to record the events. We only hear of Fingolfin because of the special circumstances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

Gandalf was able to infiltrate Dol Guldur - twice, I think. Couldn't someone have done the same and taken out 'someone?!?'

I don't think so. Gandalf's mission relied on stealth. If someone was found dead he would hhave had to deal with the entirety of Dol Guldur (I assume it was reasonably well-armed as a fortress), which is no mean feat, even for a Maia (especially one in a limited form).

alatar · 06-09-2009, 01:52 PM

The accuracy of elven arrows is legendary...at least to me. One long shot...one kill.

Why not an interdiction force, like Turin and his band, that harassed the enemy? Take that one step further, not just taking the low hanging fruit of casual encounters with orcs and ilk, but plan a small attack with the goal of elimination one or more individuals.

The larger question is why the elves and even men 'awaited' attack, except, like when the Númenóreans came ashore, are in force?

Hakon · 06-09-2009, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

The accuracy of elven arrows is legendary...at least to me. One long shot...one kill.

I doubt one arrow would be able to kill a Nazgul. The Nazgul normally stayed together in groups and were powerful enough on their own. As Gandalf put it few could ride against the nine. It is not like Elrond or Legolas could just walk up to a Nazgul and kill it.

Jeff sums it up pretty well. Sauron and Morgoth both share the same goal, to dominate all not to assassinate. Also an elf as an assassin seems really out of place. I don't think Tolkien would have even thought of anything close to that.

FeRaL sHaDoW · 06-10-2009, 01:14 AM

I am sorry if I missed it, but does anyone know how to go about slaying a nazgul? They lit them on fire shot them out of the sky and even drowned them and none of these truly put an end to them. Short of destroying the ring you can slay them with enchanted weaponry and do we even know if that actually killed the witch-king not just sending him into his spirit form?

alatar · 06-10-2009, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeRaL sHaDoW

I am sorry if I missed it, but does anyone know how to go about slaying a nazgul?

Very carefully.

Quote:

They lit them on fire shot them out of the sky and even drowned them and none of these truly put an end to them. Short of destroying the ring you can slay them with enchanted weaponry and do we even know if that actually killed the witch-king not just sending him into his spirit form?

What did the rising waters at the Ford accomplish? I would ask the same question of Legolas's Galadrim bow on the Anduin?

Inziladun · 06-10-2009, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

What did the rising waters at the Ford accomplish? I would ask the same question of Legolas's Galadrim bow on the Anduin?

Both incidents accomplished one thing only: destroying their steeds and forcing them to take the trouble to obtain new ones.

JeffF. · 06-09-2009, 02:04 PM

By this time not many of the Noldor who made the journey to Aman and saw the Light of the Trees would have been left. As Gandalf described Glorfindel those elves who saw that light had a power in the unseen world that Dark Elves did not. Most of the remaining Noldor would have been those born in Middle Earth and never saw the Light. As Glorfindel told Aragorn there were few even in Rivendell who could ride openly against the Nine.

Obviously assassination was not a tactic that would occur to the 'Good' but thinking back through the books it does not seem to be a tactic used by Morgoth or Sauron either. It is not the taking of the lives of those opposed to them that is their objective what they cannot tolerate is Free Will. Morgoth and Sauron must dominate everything and everyone and to do that they don't assassinate. Think of Hurin, captured after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, this most powerful warrior of men is twisted and corrupted rather than outright killed.

The Lord of the Nazgul could easily have killed Frodo with the thrust of his Morgul blade instead he wounds him in a way that will bring Frodo under his will. both sides kill in open battle and in duels (Fingolfin and Morgoth - elendil/Gil-galad and Sauron) when necessary but assassination is not a method for either side.

06-09-2009, 12:46 PM	#1
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Okay, just so we're not limiting the discussion, we don't have to consider only the Nazgul or the Third Age. Was there ever an event where the 'good' side decided to put a hit (successful or not) on someone on the other side (human royal affairs not withstanding)? Gandalf was able to infiltrate Dol Guldur - twice, I think. Couldn't someone have done the same and taken out 'someone?!?' Why so passive/reactive? Even to inconvenience Sauron now and then by removing his 'Mouth' would have been of some worth, if not just to annoy. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

06-09-2009, 01:15 PM	#4
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Fingolfin. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

06-09-2009, 01:52 PM	#6
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	The accuracy of elven arrows is legendary...at least to me. One long shot...one kill. Why not an interdiction force, like Turin and his band, that harassed the enemy? Take that one step further, not just taking the low hanging fruit of casual encounters with orcs and ilk, but plan a small attack with the goal of elimination one or more individuals. The larger question is why the elves and even men 'awaited' attack, except, like when the Númenóreans came ashore, are in force? __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

06-10-2009, 01:14 AM	#8
FeRaL sHaDoW Wight Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 232	I am sorry if I missed it, but does anyone know how to go about slaying a nazgul? They lit them on fire shot them out of the sky and even drowned them and none of these truly put an end to them. Short of destroying the ring you can slay them with enchanted weaponry and do we even know if that actually killed the witch-king not just sending him into his spirit form? __________________ God created night, but man created darkness....

06-09-2009, 02:04 PM	#11
JeffF. Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 70	Power of the Light Elves By this time not many of the Noldor who made the journey to Aman and saw the Light of the Trees would have been left. As Gandalf described Glorfindel those elves who saw that light had a power in the unseen world that Dark Elves did not. Most of the remaining Noldor would have been those born in Middle Earth and never saw the Light. As Glorfindel told Aragorn there were few even in Rivendell who could ride openly against the Nine. Obviously assassination was not a tactic that would occur to the 'Good' but thinking back through the books it does not seem to be a tactic used by Morgoth or Sauron either. It is not the taking of the lives of those opposed to them that is their objective what they cannot tolerate is Free Will. Morgoth and Sauron must dominate everything and everyone and to do that they don't assassinate. Think of Hurin, captured after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, this most powerful warrior of men is twisted and corrupted rather than outright killed. The Lord of the Nazgul could easily have killed Frodo with the thrust of his Morgul blade instead he wounds him in a way that will bring Frodo under his will. both sides kill in open battle and in duels (Fingolfin and Morgoth - elendil/Gil-galad and Sauron) when necessary but assassination is not a method for either side. __________________ JeffF(Fingolfin)

06-09-2009, 01:13 PM	#2
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	It's worth noting that Glorfindel was a rather exceptional Elf - a captain of Gondolin who had already slain a Balrog and who had been reincarnated and sent back to Middle-earth. His reincarnation, in particular, Tolkien seems to consider to have imparted him with a special power beyond that normally given to the Eldar (see the late Glorfindel essays in HoMe XII). Gildor is certainly of lesser power than Glorfindel, but then his company obviously outnumbered the lone Nazgul. Add to this a few other considerations: Gildor and his companions were apparently Noldor, with the light of Aman in their eyes, rather than run of the mill, as it were, Sindar/Nandor/Avari; the Black Rider was far from Mordor and his power may have been diminished; the Black Rider was possibly trying for secrecy and may have wanted to avoid announcing his presence in that part of the world with a big battle against a company of Elves. This doesn't undermine the premise of Alatar's question, but I think that, all things considered, the Nazgul probably were quite formidable opponents and there may have been few Elves or Men (or Women!) who were a match for them.