A review: JRRT's Osanwe-Kenta [ missing bit of The Silm.] - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Olorin_TLA · 12-24-2003, 08:58 AM

Indeed. The Mouth is great! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I don't think there was any Osanwe though between 'he' and Aragorn. Aragorn simply daunted him with the ferocity/nobility/strenght/terror of his gaze.

Finwe · 12-24-2003, 04:27 PM

Aragorn didn't have to "use" Osanwë to intimidate the Mouth, just as any strong person doesn't have to use supernatural skills to intimidate a weaker person. The Mouth of Sauron was perceptive, he had to be to scale the hierarchial ladder like that. At first glance, and shielded by his arrogance and close-mindedness, Aragorn just seemed like another petty king leading a group of "mindless rabble" with a "piece of elvish glass." But with a closer look, the Mouth realized that this was no ordinary person he was messing with.

There is a big, physical difference between a strong, steady person and a weak, vacillating person. You can tell straight off the bat, who is strong and who is weak. Even an Orc could have realized that Aragorn wasn't a man to be trifled with.

**lindil** · 12-26-2003, 11:19 AM

I think the fact that the Mouth feels he was 'assaulted', indicates there may well have been
osanwe being used by Aragorn, but it is possible that it was in a sort of neutral way, that the Mouth took as an Attack.

It could be Aragorn was probing him to learn the true fate of the Hobbits, noticing the inconsistency of the garments/weapons, some Sam's some Frodo's.

davem · 12-29-2003, 04:30 AM

I've ordered the relevant issue, & thanks, Lindil, for sparking my interest, but as I'm still waiting for it I don't really want to comment too deeply.

One thing that has struck me is a (vague) similarity between Osanwe & Tolkien's fellow inkling, Charles Williams', concept of co-inherence. I can't comment on how similar the two are till I've read the essay, but I'd appreciate the comments of anyone who has read it.

A good account of co-inherence is at: http://www.polarissite.net/page27.html

(short quote from the essay:
"Simply stated, co-inherence is the concept that all human beings are spiritually interconnected and totally dependent on each other. "No man is an island" and so every thought and every action affects other people. In another terminology, humanity shares a "vast spiritual reservoir".).

I'm not saying that they are exactly alike, or that Tolkien 'lifted' the idea from Williams, but this idea of a unity of mind/spirit between individuals is a possible indication that despite Tolkien's assertions, the two men were not all that far apart in their worldview.

mark12_30 · 08-31-2004, 06:27 AM

Time to bring this treasure into the daylight again.

HerenIstarion · 10-29-2004, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Time to bring this treasure into the daylight again

I second that

Rumil · 09-20-2010, 02:47 PM

Goodness me LINDIL LIVES!!!!

In celebration I have bumped this thread - so there!

Skolaidhe · 09-23-2010, 02:00 AM

This is interesting material. I wonder that no one has mentioned Saruman's ability to enslave the minds of others, through speech, over even great distances. It is by far the most obvious and explicit example of long-term long-distance communication sans palantiri. What makes this doubly interesting is that he does seem to communicate to these poor thralls through words, through language, through the power of his voice.

I will have to read those chapters over, again, with this in mind.

Inziladun · 09-23-2010, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skolaidhe

This is interesting material. I wonder that no one has mentioned Saruman's ability to enslave the minds of others, through speech, over even great distances. It is by far the most obvious and explicit example of long-term long-distance communication sans palantiri. What makes this doubly interesting is that he does seem to communicate to these poor thralls through words, through language, through the power of his voice.

I will have to read those chapters over, again, with this in mind.

Welcome to the Downs!

I don't think Saruman's powers of persuasion with his voice were an example of Osanwe. The latter was a mental means of thought transference, whereas one apparently needed to be in Saruman's presence and listening to his speech to be affected. What instance was there of that power being exerted over long distances?
That appears to be merely part of Saruman's native talents as a Maia, as were Gandalf's gifts with fire and lights.

Raynor · 10-01-2010, 03:54 AM

Quote:

I wonder that no one has mentioned Saruman's ability to enslave the minds of others, through speech, over even great distances.

I disagree

Quote:

Originally Posted by "Letter #210

Saruman's voice was not hypnotic but persuasive. Those who listened to him were not in danger of falling into a trance, but of agreeing with his arguments, while fully awake. It was always open to one to reject, by free will and reason, both his voice while speaking and its after-impressions. Saruman corrupted the reasoning powers.

Relevant
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

12-24-2003, 08:58 AM	#41
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Indeed. The Mouth is great! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I don't think there was any Osanwe though between 'he' and Aragorn. Aragorn simply daunted him with the ferocity/nobility/strenght/terror of his gaze. __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

12-24-2003, 04:27 PM	#42
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Aragorn didn't have to "use" Osanwë to intimidate the Mouth, just as any strong person doesn't have to use supernatural skills to intimidate a weaker person. The Mouth of Sauron was perceptive, he had to be to scale the hierarchial ladder like that. At first glance, and shielded by his arrogance and close-mindedness, Aragorn just seemed like another petty king leading a group of "mindless rabble" with a "piece of elvish glass." But with a closer look, the Mouth realized that this was no ordinary person he was messing with. There is a big, physical difference between a strong, steady person and a weak, vacillating person. You can tell straight off the bat, who is strong and who is weak. Even an Orc could have realized that Aragorn wasn't a man to be trifled with. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-26-2003, 11:19 AM	#43
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	I think the fact that the Mouth feels he was 'assaulted', indicates there may well have been osanwe being used by Aragorn, but it is possible that it was in a sort of neutral way, that the Mouth took as an Attack. It could be Aragorn was probing him to learn the true fate of the Hobbits, noticing the inconsistency of the garments/weapons, some Sam's some Frodo's. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

12-29-2003, 04:30 AM	#44
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	I've ordered the relevant issue, & thanks, Lindil, for sparking my interest, but as I'm still waiting for it I don't really want to comment too deeply. One thing that has struck me is a (vague) similarity between Osanwe & Tolkien's fellow inkling, Charles Williams', concept of co-inherence. I can't comment on how similar the two are till I've read the essay, but I'd appreciate the comments of anyone who has read it. A good account of co-inherence is at: http://www.polarissite.net/page27.html (short quote from the essay: "Simply stated, co-inherence is the concept that all human beings are spiritually interconnected and totally dependent on each other. "No man is an island" and so every thought and every action affects other people. In another terminology, humanity shares a "vast spiritual reservoir".). I'm not saying that they are exactly alike, or that Tolkien 'lifted' the idea from Williams, but this idea of a unity of mind/spirit between individuals is a possible indication that despite Tolkien's assertions, the two men were not all that far apart in their worldview. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

08-31-2004, 06:27 AM	#45
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Time to bring this treasure into the daylight again. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

09-20-2010, 02:47 PM	#47
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Bump! Goodness me LINDIL LIVES!!!! In celebration I have bumped this thread - so there! __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

09-23-2010, 02:00 AM	#48
Skolaidhe Newly Deceased Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2	The Voice of Saruman This is interesting material. I wonder that no one has mentioned Saruman's ability to enslave the minds of others, through speech, over even great distances. It is by far the most obvious and explicit example of long-term long-distance communication sans palantiri. What makes this doubly interesting is that he does seem to communicate to these poor thralls through words, through language, through the power of his voice. I will have to read those chapters over, again, with this in mind.

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