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Old 02-14-2001, 02:07 AM   #1
lindil
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Ring A review: JRRT's Osanwe-Kenta [ missing bit of The Silm.]

Recently I have been reading this gem of an essay from JRRT that was left out of the Quendi and Eldar section of war of the Jewels, by CRT . I will give a bit of an overview for those who may be as unaware of it as I was till a couple of weeks ago. It is imo one of the most subtle and stimulating bits of lore that has ever beem written w/ in ME or here and will def. appeal to all who were tantalized by the glimpse in 'many partings' RotK[6] ch6 where it is said:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars, recalling ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council,concerning days to come.If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard , and it would have seemed to him only that he saw gery figures , carved in stone, memorials of things now forgotten in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth , looking from mind to mind;and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.<hr></blockquote>
A few other examples that come to mind are Aragorn's wresting the Palantir from Sauron and his 'duel' w/ the Mouth of Sauron.Finrod's reading of the minds of the Beorians in Ossiriand. Gandalf's 'reading 'of Frodo's mind as he lay recuperating in Rivendell.And possibly most fascinatingly, it is the central component of the Elven gift of music being a direct experience or transmission of that which is being sung about.
One of the fascinating things of this lore is that it can be used by Men [albeit w/ greater difficulty] and is in a sense a marker of how developed and clear we are and most importantly a measure of our warmth of heart [ a telling phrase which I have only before encountered in the writings of the saints of the Eastern Orthodox Church] .

I will give a brief outline of it's contents which I hope will be enough to stimulate those interested into obataining copies from the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship who publish the journal.

It was edited not by CRT but by Carl Hostetter , one of a small group of Elvish Linguists who have been given access to remaining unpublished materials and is publishing them in a couple of journals the primary one being Vinyar Tengwar of which this essay is from vol 39-july 1998.

Osanwe-Kenta translates as 'Enquiry into the Communication of Thought' and is a resume of Pengolodh's larger work , there is some speculation that this resume was the product of Aelfwine/Eriol.

The essay begins with a discussion of the nature of Valarin, Elvish and Human minds and how this is related to the hroa [roughly tr. as body] and fea again roughly, as spirit] and how the nature of the minds of Valar ,Elves and Men is the same the diference being in power and purity. Factors which make Osanwe-Kenta either more or less difficult [ love, urgency and authority]. the fact that speech and writing and words themselves have become an impediment.
How it playsa a role in conversations w/ strangers esp. when the barriers of language are partially there.
the abuses of Melkor w/ Osanwe-Kenta. Foresight and fore casting as elements along w/ osanwe-kenta of wisdom.
More on Melkor's abuse of power w/ osanwe. Manwe's teaching re: Melkor's fall and a warning to the Elves re: his mastery of speech.
On how the Valar and the children of Iluvatar can open themselves to knowing the will of Eru and the dangers therein. The Authority of Manwe and responsibilitites of all children of I luvatar.

there are also a multitude of elvish and Valarin words discussed in this and a later set of notes . All in all I cannot for the Life of me figure out why it never made it into HoME XI , but be that as it may we have it here now.

there are also a number of Notes by JRRT on some points which are large discourses in themselves: The taking up of Hroar by the Valar, Axani [laws, rules, primarily preceding from Eru] , the Heart as a non-physical 'center' [also the teaching of Taoism and Orthodox Christianity].

word has it that there is more indeed to come and that JRRt's 'linguistic' writings are full of interesting historical matters and lore.
Hopefully anyone who knows more can let us in on it.




Lindil was often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns<u> Silmarillion canon , theories and discussion Forum </u> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.'

[ January 05, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 02-14-2001, 02:59 AM   #2
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the review pt 2-- A bit of the Osanwe-Kenta

Here is a bit of the Osanwe-Kenta [w/ out the authors notes listed] I tried to put up enough to give the flavor of this altogether remarkable work .

please comment on it as you will.


Quote:
At the end of the Lammas Pengolodh discusses briefly direct thought-transmission (sanwe-latya &quot;thought-opening&quot; ) , making several assertions about it, which are evidently dependent upon theories and observations of the Eldar elsewhere treated at length by Elvish loremasters. They are concerned primarily with the Eldar and the Valar (including the lesser Maiar of the same order). Men are not specially considered, except in so far as they are included in general statements about the Incarnates (Mirröanwi). Of them Pengolodh says only: &quot;Men have the same faculty as the Quendi, but it is in itself weaker, and is weaker in operation owing to the strength of the hröa, over which most men have small control by the will&quot;.
Pengolodh includes this matter primarily owing to its connexion with tengwesta. But he is also concerned as an historian to examine the relations of Melkor and his agents with the Valar and the Eruhíni, though this also has a connexion with &quot;language&quot;, since, as he points out, this, the greatest of the talents of the Mirröanwi, has been turned by Melkor to his own greatest advantage.
Pengolodh says that all minds (sáma, pl. sámar) are equal in status, though they differ in capacity and strength. A mind by its nature perceives another mind directly. But it cannot perceive more than the existence of another mind (as something other than itself, though of the same order) except by the will of both parties (Note 1). The degree of will, however, need not be the same in both parties. If we call one mind G (for guest or comer) and the other H (for host or receiver), then G must have full intention to inspect H or to inform it. But knowledge may be gained or imparted by G, even when H is not seeking or intending to impart or to learn: the act of G will be effective, if H is simply &quot;open&quot; (láta; látie &quot;openness&quot; ) . This distinction, he says, is of the greatest importance.
&quot;Openness&quot; is the natural or simple state (indo) of a mind that is not otherwise engaged (Note 2). In &quot;Arda Unmarred&quot; (that is, in ideal conditions free from evil) openness would be the normal state....
The Valar entered into Eä and Time of free will, and they are now in Time, so long as it endures. They can perceive nothing outside Time, save by memory of their existence before it began: they can recall the Song and the Vision. They are, of course, open to Eru, but they cannot of their own will &quot;see&quot; any part of His mind. They can open themselves to Eru in entreaty, and He may then reveal His thought to them (Note 4).
The Incarnates have by the nature of sáma the same faculties; but their perception is dimmed by the hröa, for their fëa is united to their hröa and its normal procedure is through the hröa, which is in itself part of Eä, without thought. The dimming is indeed double; for thought has to pass one mantle of hröa and penetrate another. For this reason in Incarnates transmission of thought requires strengthening to be effective. Strengthening can be by affinity, by urgency, or by authority.
Affinity may be due to kinship; for this may increase the likeness of hröa to hröa, and so of the concerns and modes of thought of the indwelling fëar, kinship is also normally accompanied by love and sympathy. Affinity may come simply from love and friendship, which is likeness or affinity of fëa to fëa.
Urgency is imparted by great need of the &quot;sender&quot; (as in joy, grief or fear); and if these things are in any degree shared by the &quot;receiver&quot; the thought is the clearer received. Authority may also lend force to the thought of one who has a duty towards another, or of any ruler who has a right to issue commands or to seek the truth for the good of others.
These causes may strengthen the thought to pass the veils and reach a recipient mind. But that mind must remain open, and at the least passive. If, being aware that it is addressed, it then closes, no urgency or affinity will enable the sender's thought to enter.
Lastly, tengwesta has also become an impediment. It is in Incarnates clearer and more precise than their direct reception of thought. By it also they can communicate easily with others, when no strength is added to their thought: as, for example, when strangers first meet. And, as we have seen, the use of &quot;language&quot; soon becomes habitual, so that the practice of ósanwe (interchange of thought) is neglected and becomes more difficult....
Pengolodh then proceeds to the abuses of sanwe. &quot;For&quot; he says, &quot;some who have read so far, may already have questioned my lore, saying: This seems not to accord with the histories. If the sáma were inviolable by force, how could Melkor have deceived so many minds and enslaved so many? Or is it not rather true that the sáma may be protected by greater strength but captured also by greater strength? Wherefore Melkor, the greatest, and even to the last possessing the most fixed, determined and ruthless will, could penetrate the minds of the Valar, but withhold himself from them, so that even Manwe in dealing with him may seem to us at times feeble, unwary, and deceived. Is this not so?'
&quot;I say that it is not so. Things may seem alike, but if they are in kind wholly different they must be distinguished. Foresight which is prevision, and forecasting which is opinion made by reasoning upon present evidence, may be identical in their prediction, but they are wholly different in mode, and they should be distinguished by loremasters, even if the daily language of both Elves and Men gives them the same name as departments of wisdom&quot;. (Note 6)



The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.
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Old 02-14-2001, 08:50 AM   #3
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Re: A bit of the Osanwe

A lot to take in at the moment, maybe a better comment later.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>
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Old 02-14-2001, 10:35 AM   #4
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Re: A bit of the Osanwe

Wow! My sáma is blown! Seriously, this is very fascinating. This explains how Gandalf was able to communicate his thoughts to Frodo even across great distances....

...Whoa! I had a quote I wanted to take from the essay and went to refer back to it, but did you just shorten or alter your post, lindil?

From whence did you say this fascinating piece is obtainable?

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Old 02-14-2001, 12:21 PM   #5
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shortened

Mr Underhill: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Seriously, this is very fascinating. This
explains how Gandalf was able to communicate his thoughts to Frodo
even across great distances....<hr></blockquote>



Sorry Mr. Underhill I did indeed shorten it fearing the quote was to long.
I obtained it by strange circuituous routes better discussed via email.
However the journal is still in print and should be found easily via a search.
I think I put all the relevant info in the 1st post.


lindil

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Old 02-14-2001, 01:30 PM   #6
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Re: shortened

I wonder about the implications of this essay for the legendarium. No really, I'm not joking.

Tolkien's model of Guest and Host communication is remarkably similar to modern-day computer programming models (client-server). If distance is no object, I wonder that the elves didn't establish a sort of mental &quot;internet&quot; that would obviate the need for devices such as the Palantíri, which must have seemed exceedingly clumsy and inadequate in comparison to this mode of communication. It gives me a whole new perspective on Legolas joining the Fellowship, and on the general elvish disdain for other races. It must have been tough for Legolas to leave a community where such an intimate level of relationship was available to travel with a bunch of (comparatively) lower beings. But then again, if distance is no object, would Legolas ever really be &quot;gone&quot; from that community? I seem to recall that Legolas never really needed sleep and was always up by himself keeping watch while the others slept. Can't remember if that's accurate, but if it is, could he have been doing the equivalent of logging on to the Elvish Chat Room during his off hours to catch up with friends and relatives? Fascinating... My sáma is spinning! Are the elves in Valinor able to communicate this freely with their kinsmen in Middle-earth? What about Maedhros during his long torture while hung from the face of Thangorodrim? His ability to commune with his kinsmen must have been simultaneously a comfort and an excruciating torment -- so close and yet so far away.

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Old 02-16-2001, 02:38 PM   #7
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O-K

Mr Underhill<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I wonder that the elves
didn't establish a sort of mental &quot;internet&quot; that would obviate the need for devices such as the
Palantíri, which must have seemed exceedingly clumsy and inadequate in comparison to this
mode of communication.<hr></blockquote>

I think in other parts of O-K it is implied that for maost incarnates the ability had more or less atrophied so I am not sure just how widespread this would be. I think there are more instances that will reveal themselves t us as we read w/ O-K in mind. as for replacing the palantiri, they also had a visual component-that would have been very useful for militry planning.I don't recall O-K's visual component being mentioned outside of seing and storytelling.


Mr U:&quot;It gives me a whole new perspective on Legolas joining the Fellowship,
and on the general elvish disdain for other races.&quot;

Although think the dunedain were able users of O-K especially the rulers.

It must have been tough for Legolas to leave
a community where such an intimate level of relationship was available to travel with a bunch of
(comparatively) lower beings.
Well, aragorn and Gandalf were not as my Dad would say 'all that shabby' but I see what you mean.
Actually Legolasdevelopedsuch love and respectt for Aragorn that he removes w/ some of his friends from Greenwood to Ithilien. A rather unprecedented thing, That Elves should move to have closer association with men.
although it is intimated that Ost - in -Edhil was close ot Moria for strategic purposes . Legolas actions seems to me to be somehow even above that.

Mr. U.:&quot;But then again, if distance is no object, would Legolas ever really
be &quot;gone&quot; from that community?- I seem to recall that Legolas never really needed sleep and
was always up by himself keeping watch while the others slept. Can't remember if that's
accurate, but if it is, could he have been doing the equivalent of logging on to the Elvish Chat
Room during his off hours to catch up with friends and relatives?&quot;
I do recall him mentioning that elvish resting was a meditative 'memory house' if you will. But I can not think of anything that suggests O-K in his travels w/ Aragorn and Gimili.

Fascinating... My sáma is
spinning! Are the elves in Valinor able to communicate this freely with their kinsmen in
Middle-earth?
Don't know. Maybe the Palantir helped. I seem to recall that the P. was the object of the pilgrimage in 'The Road Goes Ever On'

I hope o reread the whole thing in a day or so.
To me the exciting implications are in 'real time' more than ME.

but as the blind man said 'we shall see'.



lindil

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Old 02-20-2001, 10:55 AM   #8
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Arwen

Arwen was also using a form of Osanwe - Kenta when she watched over Aragorn in thought .

Any other examples ?

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Old 02-20-2001, 11:43 AM   #9
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Re: Arwen

Cirdan used Osanwe in Conversations in Avallone, in the fan fiction section. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

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above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
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Old 02-20-2001, 11:53 AM   #10
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Re: Arwen

Gandalf's communication with Frodo warning him to take off the Ring atop Amon Hen seems a clear example. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> ‘I have thirty with me,’ said Halbarad... ‘We rode as swiftly as we might when your summons came.’
‘But I did not summon you,’ said Aragorn, ‘save only in wish. My thoughts have often turned to you, and seldom more than tonight; yet I have sent no word.’

...

‘Why have they come? Have you heard?’ asked Merry.
‘They answered a summons, as you heard,’ said Gimli. ‘Word came to Rivendell, they say: Aragorn has need of his kindred. Let the Dúnedain ride to him in Rohan! But whence this message came they are now in doubt. Gandalf sent it, I would guess.’
‘Nay, Galadriel,’ said Legolas. ‘Did she not speak through Gandalf of the ride of the Grey Company from the North?’
‘Yes, you have it,’ said Gimli. ‘The Lady of the Wood! She read many hearts and desires.’<hr></blockquote>

Another example? And also, right after the above cited:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ‘Yes, you have it,’ said Gimli. ‘The Lady of the Wood! She read many hearts and desires. Now why did not we wish for some of our own kinsfolk, Legolas?’
Legolas stood before the gate and turned his bright eyes away north and east, and his fair face was troubled. ‘I do not think that any would come,’ he answered. ‘They have no need to ride to war; war already marches on their own lands.’<hr></blockquote>Is Legolas making an educated guess or has he already &quot;heard&quot; about war marching on the lands of the north?

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 2/20/01 12:57:28 pm
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Old 03-07-2001, 08:28 AM   #11
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Osanwe-Kenta in 'the hobbit'

Thanks to Mithadan's thread on the Elves of Imladris in the Hobbit, I came across this quote which reinforces your view Mr. Underhill of their being a vast network of O-K going on throughout the Elven-world. Athought I had found a bit over the top at first, but here [pb Hobbit - ballantine p.59] is the text;
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 'Elves know a lot and are wonderous folk for news, and know what os going on among the peoplesof the land, asquick as water flows , or quicker.'<hr></blockquote>

what think ye?

Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns<u> Silmarillion canon , theories and discussion Forum </u> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 03-10-2001, 03:57 AM   #12
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another bit of the Osanwe-Kenta

Another excerpt from the 'Osanwe - Kenta' published by the journal Vinyar Tengwar this time dealing w/ Morgoth and his distorion of the use of Osanwe-Kenta.The excerpt covers a few topics that have been coming up in threads. Enjoy

Quote:

In like manner, extortion of the secrets of a mind may seem to come from reading it by force in despite of its unwill, for the knowledge gained may at times appear to be as complete as any that could be obtained. Nonetheless it does not come from penetration of the barrier of unwill.
There is indeed no axan that the barrier should not be forced, for it is únat, a thing impossible to be or to be done, and the greater the force exerted, the greater the resistance of the unwill. But it is an axan universal that none shall directly by force or indirectly by fraud take from another what he has a right to hold and keep as his own.
Melkor repudiated all axani. He would also abolish (for himself) all únati if he could. Indeed in his beginning and the days of his great might the most ruinous of his violences came from his endeavour so to order Eä that there were no limits or obstacles to his will. But this he could not do. The únati remained, a perpetual reminder of the existence of Eru and His invincibility, a reminder also of the co-existence with himself of other beings (equal in descent if not in power) impregnable by force. From this proceeds his unceasing and unappeasable rage.
He found that the open approach of a sáma of power and great force of will was felt by a lesser sáma as an immense pressure, accompanied by fear. To dominate by weight of power and fear was his delight; but in this case he found them unavailing: fear closed the door faster. Therefore he tried deceit and stealth.
Here he was aided by the simplicity of those unaware of evil, or not yet accustomed to beware of it. And for that reason it was said above that the distinction of openness and active will to entertain was of great importance. For he would come by stealth to a mind open and unwary, hoping to learn some part of its thought before it closed, and still more to implant in it his own thought, to deceive it and win it to his friendship. His thought was ever the same, though varied to suit each case (so far as he understood it): he was above all benevolent; he was rich and could give any gift that they desired to his friends; he had a special love for the one that he addressed; but he must be trusted.
In this way he won entry into many minds, removing their unwill, and unlocking the door by the only key, though his key was counterfeit. Yet this was not what he most desired, the conquest of the recalcitrant, the enslavement of his enemies. Those who listened and did not close the door were too often already inclined to his friendship; some (according to their measure) had already entered on paths like his own, and listened because they hoped to learn and receive from him things that would further their own purposes. (So it was with those of the Maiar who first and earliest fell under his domination. They were already rebels, but lacking Melkor's power and ruthless will they admired him, and saw in his leadership hope of effective rebellion.) But those who were yet simple and uncorrupted in &quot;heart&quot; (Note 7) were at once aware of his entry, and if they listened to the warning of their hearts, ceased to listen, ejected him, and closed the door. It was such as these that Melkor most desired to overcome: his enemies, for to him all were enemies who resisted him in the least thing or claimed anything whatsoever as their own and not his.
Therefore he sought means to circumvent the únat and the unwill. And this weapon he found in &quot;language&quot;. For we speak now of the Incarnate, the Eruhíni whom he most desired to subjugate in Eru's despite. Their bodies being of Eä are subject to force; and their spirits, being united to their bodies in love and solicitude, are subject to fear on their behalf. And their language, though it comes from the spirit or mind, operates through and with the body: it is not the sáma nor its sanwe, but it may express the sanwe in its mode and according to its capacity. Upon the body and upon the indweller, therefore, such pressure and such fear may be exerted that the incarnate person may be forced to speak.
So Melkor thought in the darkness of his forethought long ere we awoke. For in days of old, when the Valar instructed the Eldar new-come to Aman concerning the beginning of things and the enmity of Melkor, Manwe himself said to those who would listen: &quot;Of the Children of Eru Melkor knew less than his peers, giving less heed to what he might have learned, as we did, in the Vision of their Coming. Yet, as we now fear since we know you in your true being, to everything that might aid his designs for mastery his mind was keen to attend, and his purpose leaped forward swifter than ours, being bound by no axan. From the first he was greatly interested in &quot;language&quot;, that talent that the Eruhíni would have by nature; but we did not at once perceive the malice in this interest, for many of us shared it, and Aule above all. But in time we discovered that he had made a language for those who served him; and he has learned our tongue with ease. He has great skill in this matter. Beyond doubt he will master all tongues, even the fair speech of the Eldar. Therefore, if ever you should speak with him beware!&quot;
&quot;Alas!&quot; says Pengolodh, &quot;in Valinor Melkor used the Quenya with such mastery that all the Eldar were amazed, for his use could not be bettered, scarce equalled even, by the poets and the loremasters&quot;.
Thus by deceit, by lies, by torment of the body and the spirit, by the threat of torment to others well loved, or by the sheer terror of his presence, Melkor ever sought to force the Incarnate that fell into his power, or came within his reach, to speak and to tell him all that he would know. But his own Lie begot an endless progeny of lies.
By this means he has destroyed many, he has caused treacheries untold, and he has gained knowledge of secrets to his great advantage and the undoing of his enemies. But this is not by entering the mind, or by reading it as it is, in its despite. Nay, for great though the knowledge that he gained, behind the words (even of those in fear and torment) dwells ever the sáma inviolable: the words are not in it, though they may proceed from it (as cries from behind a locked door); they must be judged and assessed for what truth may be in them. Therefore, the Liar says that all words are lies: all things that he hears are threaded through with deceit, with evasions, hidden meanings, and hate. In this vast network he himself enmeshed struggles and rages, gnawed by suspicion, doubt, and fear. Not so would it have been, if he could have broken the barrier, and seen the heart as it is in its truth unveiled.




</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 3/10/01 7:29:45 pm

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Old 03-16-2001, 07:32 AM   #13
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Re: another bit of the Osanwe-Kenta

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I will give a brief outline of it's contents which I hope will be enough to stimulate those interested into obataining copies from the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship who publish the journal.<hr></blockquote>

How do I get in touch with the ELF? This would be a great resource for the paper I'm doing on Tolkien's languages!

And what are some other resources for Tolkien's languages(i.e. which volumes of HoME, etc.)?

They cannot conquer forever!</p>
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Old 03-16-2001, 09:03 AM   #14
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Re: another bit of the Osanwe-Kenta

There are loads of language sites. Try Ardalambion: www.uib.no/People/hnohf/index.html. There's also a site called the mirror of Galadriel or Galadriel's Mirror which is a list of links divided by topic. I'm sure that there is a languages section.

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Old 03-16-2001, 12:52 PM   #15
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Re: another bit of the Osanwe-Kenta

Ardalambion is a great site. Since I found out about it, I go there anytime I have a question on language or etymology concerning Tolkien.

Fate, it seems is not without a sense of irony.</p>
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Old 03-16-2001, 09:40 PM   #16
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Re: Osanwe-Kenta

What a wonderful and revealing discussion. I don't know how many will make their way through it. But thanks for the information. I fear that some of you are way more advanced than the rest of us. Don't let that hinder you,

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Old 03-17-2001, 07:02 AM   #17
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Re: Most don't seem drawn to it.

Oh, yeah lindil, I visited your site, and I must say, whoa. I didn't know where to post so I didn't. Maybe I should read Osanwe-Kenta, I have it all on my computer.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>
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Old 03-17-2001, 08:22 AM   #18
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where

whoa as in amazing or as in stop! or as in? <img src=smile.gif ALT="">
better to email me as it is not teribbly proper to use the downs as a discussion board for my board!
I am sure BWwill agree.<img src=smile.gif ALT=""> <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> :<img src=wink.gif ALT="">



Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his own board Osanwe-Kenta[/i]- 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 06-18-2002, 09:45 AM   #19
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Bumping this topic up so that those unfamiliar with this work can read a bit about it.
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Old 06-18-2002, 10:11 AM   #20
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Hi,

This sounds really interesting. (I'm a huge fan of "Interior Prayer", which has orthodox roots. Way of the Pilgrim, and all that.)

Could somebody pleeeeeze post a simple link to the essay of interest, or clearly tell me what book or journal to buy or search for? There are many mysterious hints, but I don't have time to track them down this week.

Thanks, I hope!

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Old 06-18-2002, 11:20 AM   #21
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It was published with commentary in Vinyar Tengwar. Back issues are available for purchase.

With due respect to Lindil, I do not place much religious emphasis on the essay, but it is nonetheless fascinating.
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Old 06-18-2002, 01:23 PM   #22
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With all due respect to Mithadan, the religous and indeed Orthodox [ which I am] Christian implications only increased the value the essay has for me and of course my ever deepening respect for the Prof.

To me Osanwe Kenta , the Akallabeth and the Athrabeth are the height of JRRT's written contemplations.He crosses the boarder from myth into spiritual perception and communication. The implications of Osanwe for us are revealed for us as bombadil layed the treasure of the barrow upon the hill, free for all folk.

and indeed seeing the O-K and Athrabeth included in 'the Silmarillion ' is one of the motivating factors for a new canon of the Silmarillion. However small the circulation!

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 06-18-2002, 01:29 PM   #23
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Wow. That is one of the most amazing topics that I have ever read.

I can see that this principle is still in use today, whether it is weaker or not, I don't know (compared to Aragorn's time). It seems that some have mastered it very well, and I am not talking about phyics and the like.

Some people have a gift in being able to discern the thoughts of people, to see the ulterior motives of some. I liken this to Faramir and Frodo's converstation near Ammon Henneth(The Window on the West). He said that because he was truthful, he could detect untruth and evil intent.

Thank you Lindil and all who have posted and commented on this thread. I wish that the BD's would come back to this level of converstation again. This realy stimulates the sama. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: Joy ]
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Old 06-18-2002, 01:47 PM   #24
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Helen - I do have a copy of this essay and it is amazing to me, whatever perspective you consider it from. It is one of my favorites written by JRRT from the later years, a time when he seemed to be experimenting with some new and fascinating approaches.

About 5 weeks ago, I posted a thread on mind-to-mind communication in LotR, not realizing about the existence of this essay or even of the earlier thread. Once I found out, I went ahead and ordered it. The essay covers a good 13 pages so there is plenty to read and think about.

To order the volume, just pull up this web site:
www.elvish.org

Go to Vinyar Tengwar and then roll down the page and press back issues. They will give you a descriptive list of back issues with contents. The main osanwe-kenta essay is in #39. Each one costs $2 plus the postage (forget what that is) There are other issues which contain original Tolkien writings that don't appear elsewhere as well.

sharon

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]
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Old 06-19-2002, 03:05 PM   #25
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joy :
Quote:
Thank you Lindil and all who have posted and commented on this thread. I wish that the BD's would come back to this level of converstation again. This realy stimulates the sama.
you are of course welcome, re; the downs' level of discourse. I often agonized over how to elevate it to the maximum and tried w/ a few threads here and there in my early days [which alas I found out do not seem to be archived]. I then embarked briefly on my own discussion board deigned to cover the nmore esoteric and Christian aspects of the legendarium and co. It went rather well for a while and then ezboard destroyed it!. I rebuilt it but w/ a lot of the great threads unrecoverable and my time at short supply.

I hope to revamp the second one [ you can probably find a link in my oldest threads . [ osanwe ] not osanwe kenta [the old site].
anyway for the foreseeable future I wish to focus more on the Revised Silmarillion which includes the Osanwe Kenta, Athrabeth, Laws and Customs among the Eldar and much else that I think JRRT would have included.
Gilthalions Tar ost in Eruhin ? [ also in my older signatures]has some excdellent discussions and has alot of BD'ers

Thanks to Mithadan for 'upping' the thread.
A worthy idea to reitereate every so often.
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Old 06-21-2002, 10:02 AM   #26
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Lindil,

Thanks again for posting this. I'm chewing slowly on it... Are you familiar (at all) with Centering Prayer, originally a catholic discipline but now becoming downright emcumenical? I see some striking similarities. I was fascinated to read reports of Long Silent Retreats given by the Contemplative outreach-- the rule is No talking, and when you pass by a brother or a sister, you are supposed to avoid eye contact and pray for them. The writer said that she felt much closer to the people there than she normally would have.

Given TOlkien's close attention paid to Things Catholic, I would be amazed if this (O-K)was not connected somehow to his understanding of communion. Have you read that letter where he encourages his son Michael to attend communion in a church in which he does not particularly feel drawn to the people? TOlkien's point is that in praying for the people (and also the priest) that so annoys you, you are more living out the idea of communion, and it will mean more. There's something quite deep in what he's telling his son, I think.

Also reminds me of some things I remember reading about mystical union of the body of Christ-- that as one's union with God deepens and expands, one is also (by neccessity) brought into union with the body of Christ. It is strikingly similar, I think.

There may(?, I'm guessing) even be some mention of all this in the Philokaia (Actually I'd be surprised if there wasn't, the Philokalia covers SOOO much ground... I've only read short excerpts... you are probably much better qualified to answer that.)

This topic rocks... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

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Old 08-14-2002, 07:58 AM   #27
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Helen:"Thanks again for posting this. I'm chewing slowly on it... Are you familiar (at all) with Centering Prayer, originally a catholic discipline but now becoming downright emcumenical?"

Lindil:I have read of it, and imagine it would be useful as a basis. The Jesus prayer described in the latter-mentioned Philokalia is in my mind along w/ fasting going to be the way that one would most naturally gain Osanwe [that and raw/living food] naturally - as far as it might be given to one. As I am Orthodox, I am much more in tune and agreement w/ traditional and saint inspired/transmitted practices than more modern creations such as the centering prayer [ though I still use some of the Taoist practices I learned way back to keep my mind calm, nervous and endocrine system more or less balanced, these are basically nothing more than very elaborate methods of warming the being up for Prayer.]

Helen:"... Have you read that letter where he encourages his son Michael to attend communion in a church in which he does not particularly feel drawn to the people? TOlkien's point is that in praying for the people (and also the priest) that so annoys you, you are more living out the idea of communion, and it will mean more. There's something quite deep in what he's telling his son, I think."
lindil: I agree. Most of us have to work extremely hard to see past our pre-conceptions [ or lack of thought] on such a huge # of factors that color or life. Most people seem to choose their religion based on family, convienence, like/dislike of the people involved, etc. So little energy is put towards asking God to show us the Truth, no matter what it is or how uncomfortable it may be.


There may(?, I'm guessing) even be some mention of all this in the Philokaia (Actually I'd be surprised if there wasn't, the Philokalia covers SOOO much ground... I've only read short excerpts...


lindil: The Philokalia is def. considered to be THE book after the Bible which teaches one to pray w/out ceasing and to understand the fullness of the teaching of the saints and the Church on everything essential to Spiritual Warfare, Enlightenment and Union w/ God.
I am no expert in these matters though. that is for sure [ as my confessor will confirm!] but I have many times stood in silent awe after reading the Philokalia, having been give a glimpse through it's pages of what humans really are and could be w/ unflagging devotion to accepting grace. Indeed the Philokalia [ and it's wonderful companion 'the Way of a Pilgrim' are probably along w/ the Bible what would go w/ me to the 'desert isle'.

The main catch w/ the Philokalia is that to really get it, and be able to practice what is mentioned yuo must be a an organic member of the community that it came out of, the Orthodox Church. Transmission is everything here. Trying to read it and practice on one's own will only go so far.
I had a hard time w/ that at first but finally [ and gratefully] realized the truth of it.



Helen:This topic rocks...

lindil: [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]


There are a few other things along theis line at the old Osanwe website. I don't have the link handy but anyone interested can email me.
lindil@email.com

[ August 14, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 08-14-2002, 11:25 AM   #28
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Fascinating info on the 'mind reading' aspect in ME. Does the essay explain if this method (or a corruption of this method) was used by Morgoth and Sauron to control their underlings (orcs etc.). I'm thinking here of the end of the Battle of the Morannon when Sauron has been defeated and the orcs and trolls become witless as if they were ants in a nest where the queen had been killed.

(sorry to bring the tone down but not v. expert on Orthodox church etc :-)
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Old 08-14-2002, 11:53 AM   #29
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what i read i found interesting, but im in a rush and i cant read something on the internet that long, id have to find a proper time to read something like that because its mind boggling [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

well, WHERE can i order these essays that u guys r talking about? i need info!!!!!

thanks in advance
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Old 08-14-2002, 03:04 PM   #30
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MB, this is exactly the kind of thoughtless post that is jamming up the Downs these days. If you had read the thread, you would have found a detailed description of how to obtain the essay a few posts up.
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Old 08-14-2002, 06:35 PM   #31
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no but i did....i just didnt understand where to order it.... or maybe since i was in a hurry i didnt read very well, either way, sorry.
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Old 08-15-2002, 02:07 AM   #32
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Rumil,
Morgoth's use of language is addressed but i don't recall any mention of his/Sauron's use of Osanwe for controlling the minions.

The O-K as we have it is decribed by itself as being a synopsis.

again to all - the essay is available through the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship [ELF] @ www.elvish.org

cost in US is 2$ postage paid.def a deal!

[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 09-06-2002, 02:05 PM   #33
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Hello all,
The essay finally having arrived (glee!) I find my main question revolves around Tolkien's emphasis on "urgency". This is the one thing that I read that **seems** (repeat seems, I am not sure yet!) to contradict the catholic mystical tradition which this seems so connected to in my mind.

What I am getting at is that "detatchment" is considered key in mysticism; while "urgency" is considered key in osanwe. Does anybody else find this contradictory or puzzling, or do you have a perspective that brings them together?

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Old 09-12-2002, 02:36 PM   #34
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I would say that if by mysticism you mean something like 'opening your self to God's grace and will'.

Then Osanwe, while a higher function [ for most of us] is about human to human [ or in the real world I would add angel to human or human to angel]communication.

One can gain a level of being or energy and skill [ or be born w/ it I imagine]to use Osanwe and have no spiritual aspirations or contacts at all.

Although i am risking a huge sieline discussion, I would say that the Osanwe faculties by and large belong to the soul and mysticism to the spirit [ the individual human spirit that is].

I use these terms as defined by St.Theophan the Recluse [+c.1904]in his abosolutely essential The Spiritual Life<st. herman press> and also by a reader of St. theophan ; GI Gurjieff [ see esp In Search of the Miraculous* and Views from the Real World * by PD Ouspensky


St. Theophan's [ and the orthodox Church in general's views are] that the human spirit'[s original function was to receive God's divine Energiasi.e. grace and transmit it to our souls [ and thence to other people in prayer and conversation] and also to our bodies and thence to the earth.

THis link was disrupted by the fall of Adam and Eve and our souls [read ego's] have in general tried to usurpe the function of the spirit which is to guide us toward and by God.

This is why someone like Morgoth or Sauron can extend their minds [ and powers] gerat distances [or black and 'white' magicians and wiccans and all such shamanistic workers]to communicate their will to their servants. I bring up the more specifically dark beings and users to illustrate the non-spiritual nature of osanwe.It is a function of our soul, not a state of grace given by God. Now of course someone like Aragorn [ or Arwen] in the Legendarium or the saints in our world will do their utmost to use such powers as they may have in a way that is in harmony w/ God [ or Eru], but as Sauron and Morgoth show it is not inextricably bound.

btw I have long thought that the palntir and the mirror of galadriel were to my mind 'crystalizations' of this Osanwe and Osanwe related abilities.
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Old 12-20-2002, 06:00 PM   #35
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Interesting to see how much Osanwe there is in the movie [TTT]. I am really suprised they got that bit of subtlety.

There was of course a little in FotR when Frodo first enters 'Lothlorien'.

but it ws so dark and witchy I had a hard time appreciating it.

Anyway I will take Arwen 'watching over Aragorn in thought' anyday over xenarwen warrior princess.
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Old 01-04-2003, 03:38 AM   #36
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WOW! Lindil, thanks no end for bringing Osanwe-Kente to the Books Forum. I haven't been to Languages yet, and there's a lot of great stuff I'm probably missing out on. Was the Osanwe-Kente written entirely by JRRT, or is it being compiled by the Elf language scholars? Do you know how much is JRRT and if much has been added to it? Hopefully his own views on the subject don't get distorted or misinterpreted anywhere along the way!

Quote:
This explains how Gandalf was able to communicate his thoughts to Frodo even across great distances....
In this case, would Gandalf have had to be without his Incarnation, his wizardly body? I'm still unsure of the timing of Gandalf's return and Frodo's trial at Amon Hen. From Gandalf's description of the event he was standing in a "high place" communicating with Frodo - do I take this to mean he was in his earthly body at the time? Obviously when he returned some of his powers were greatly enhanced.

As for the distance question, can Elves as Eruhíni communicate over great distances? Is the telepathic phonecall from Galadriel to Elrond in the movie appropriate? And is the communication without words, back and forth between Frodo and Galadriel appropriate as well? As for the first instance of Osanwe-Kente in the FOTR movie, when the Fellowship enter Lorien, obviously Frodo's mind would have to be open. Presumably this was the natural state for Frodo. Should this have been the natural state for the entire Fellowship? Even Boromir is questioned telepathically by Galadriel. Was his mind open, or did she use her considerable powers to force a way inside?

My apologies if some of these questions are easily answered. I haven't completely grasped the whole idea yet.
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Old 01-05-2003, 03:42 AM   #37
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Doug,

The Osanwe-kenta essay was all written by Tolkien. It is an amazing essay. If you're interested I would definitely order it from Venyar Tengwar which is an Elvish languages journal. It can be ordered online and only costs $2 plus the shipping. The order info should be on this thread or on another thread on the same subject "telepathic communication" which I started after Lindil's. (I didn't know about Lindil's thread back then.)

It is theoretically possible for Elves to do this type of communication long distance. There are a number of factors like urgency and receptiveness of mind that makes it "easier or harder" to achieve such communication. And the essay says it is also easier to do this in the West rather than Middle-earth where more obstacles abound.

In theory, it is possible for any sentient mind to accomplish osanwe. In practice, it is rare for those other than Valar, Maia and Elves to do so. But there are definite examples of it, and some of those involve Frodo. The prime one "long distance" is when Frodo is wrestling with the question of whether or not to put on the Ring and Gandalf sends him a clear message not to. Frodo stands suspended between the demand of the Ring and Gandalf's warning, and opts for the warning.

One of the questions that has always intrigued me is this. Frodo was obviously an unusual hobbit with his ability to receive such messages, and to have visions. What would have happened to him once he reahed Tol Eressea? And indeed many agree that the ban on going to Valinor did not apply to him, and he could have done that as well. Assuming that he could be healed (and that's a big assumption!), would he have "grown" a little more after going West and learned how to communicate in this fashion? I am assuming that folk like Galadriel and Mithrndir would still have cared enought to check in on the hobbits and make sure they were doing alright. I am also assuming that he would have chosen not to die until Sam arrived and they could go on beyond the world together.

That is a lot of years in Tol Eressea, at least by human standards. People do not stand still in my opinion. Either they go forward, or they decay. So would Frodo have become proficient in Osanwe? I think there's a good chance that would have happened. If only JRRT had written a sequel or even a short epilogue as he did for Sam!

sharon

p.s. If you can't get the order info elsewhere, send me a pm and I'll send it to you.

[ January 05, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]
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Old 01-06-2003, 08:34 PM   #38
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Quote:
WOW! Lindil, thanks no end for bringing Osanwe-Kente to the Books Forum.
you are of course welcome!

It boggles my mind that CJRT would have left this out of HoME [heck I would have at least put it in UT to get into circulation as soon as possible. But at least we have it now.

I apologize that I do not have time to go more fully into some of your questions, but between the text itself [ and more of it than is presented above may soon appear at the Osanwe site linked below]and Sharon's excellent reply most of your queries should be answered.

again the link to order the O-K is www.elvish.org

make sure you get the O-K itself [ a later issue has 'etymological notes on the O-K'] which is interesting also, but it is not the whole essay.

[ January 06, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 12-23-2003, 08:15 AM   #39
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Quote:
Interesting to see how much Osanwe there is in the movie [TTT]. ...
At first, lindil, I thought there wasn't any in the third movie, but then, there were the times Aragorn asked Gandalf "What does your heart tell you"; and Gandalf being able to see Frodo til he crossed into Mordor; and how about Elrond knowing about the Black Fleet, might that have been Osanwe? What else am I missing? Do you think Gandalf was using Osanwe during the Black Gate/ Sammath Naur sequence?

Too bad we missed Aragorn's osanwe-duel with the Mouth of Sauron, although I didn't particularly miss MoS for his own sake.
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Old 12-23-2003, 11:44 AM   #40
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Truth be told, the 'RotK' was so distressing for me that I only thought of Osanwe once during the movie.

Your points above seem to pretty much cover it, questions and all.

I for one missed the Mouth. An excellent bit of drama that I was suprised was abandoned.
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