Uhg- A terrible thought

[The Elusive Spirit]

I agree that if a child was possible it would not necessarily be evil. HE/she would have had some kind of internal good/evil conflict!

On morgoth's thoughts, rape was most likely what he had in mind. Another kind of torture probably would not have been as effective (Thingol would have gone off on Morgoth regardless.) Setting aside the fact that Luthien would have "died" if Morgoth tried anything, simply violating her would be enough to provoke a response from Thingol. Luthien would have been so humiated/broken/sick that I can't imagine any thing else for her spirit to do than depart. Morgoth also has that power obsession that characterizes rapists. The desires that Morgoth had toward Luthien seem to be the culmination of his evilness, his desire to corrupt something so pure.

[Meneltarmacil]

I must point out that there would appear to be a big problem in the idea that "evil cannot create." Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't dragons originally created by Morgoth? Or were they just another example of something that was corrupted?

[Kuruharan]

Ah, wouldn't we like to know.

Everyone agrees that Dragons were originally beasts of some sort that Morgoth corrupted.

The controversy starts over "how" and "with what" Morgoth corrupted them.

The correct view, which I articulate so astonishingly well, is that Morgoth caused rebellious Ainu spirits to possess the bodies of the Dragons. Others, for some reason, will not accept this great truth and argue (among other things) that Dragons were either smart to begin with or had lesser spirits inhabit them.

However, this issue has already been throughly mauled on many a doleful field of conflict.

[Thinlómien]

I´ve never thought it like that... disgusting. Well I think that it shouldn´t be taken so literally; sounds a bit strange, that Morgoth would have wanted to create some kind of a monster or have a son or something. It seems to me more probable that he just wanted to ruin everything beautiful.

[Joy]

Wow! I have read both of those passages, but didn't really go that far with it.

As with the situation with Arien, I see this as Morgoth wanting to defile all that represents good and light (even more so with Arien, the Sun-Maiden).

He is very darkness and hate all Light.

___________
And sadly, I know what it is to go through something like that - though my situation wasn't violent.

It destroys a person's pshyce (spirit). It crushes a person. One who is innocent in all ways is brougth even lower. So, I can understand that one of the Eldar, who is the Fairest of all the Children on Iluvatar would depart the hroa in a case of rape or any other violation of the body - for it would be even more a violation of the feä of this being.

Makes you wonder about Celebrian also. What kind of torment did she receive at the hands of the Orcs?

[the guy who be short]

I know that Morgoth couldn't produce offspring anyway, but I just thought I'd add an idea.

Morgoth would most likely never have wanted a child. The theme of son-overpowering-powerful-God is recurrent in mythology - look at old Zeusy. A child to him would be a threat. So if he didn't know he was, er, sterile, I don't think he'd have wanted to risk conception. And they didn't have contraception in those days.

Quite odd of Old Tollers to make him sterile though. I can name a few evil people who managed kids...

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

Morgoth would most likely never have wanted a child. The theme of son-overpowering-powerful-God is recurrent in mythology - look at old Zeusy....

Yes, Zeus and his pantheon rebelling against their father, Kronos and making the visible world with parts of his body, or Odin and his pantheon rebelling against Ymir and making the visible world out of his corpse, etc, etc.

The interesting thing about that, is that this particular theme in mythology is to be found in virtually all cultures, except that of the Hebrews. Now, looking at it from a Judeo-Christian point of view, the explanation could be said that while all cultures seem to have a concept of this rebellion of the Created against the Creator, only the Jews understood that the Father brought the world into being, and not his rebellious creations.

An interesting concept to consider, in the light of Tolkien's Catholicism.