Elven genetics

[Saraphim]

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about Elwing. So Arwen must be something like ten-twelfths-elf.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I probably am). I'm terribly bad at fractions.

[symestreem]

Saraphim, Arwen was 23/32 elvish by birth.
OK, I finally understand now. The choice had to be given to Elrond's children because they were the mortal children of an immortal (so to speak.)
So what if Elladan and Elrohir went to Valinor, married the elf next door, and had children? Would the choice have to be extended to them as well, because they had mortal blood, and to their children and grandchildren?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Sorry to go off topic a bit,

Finwe said:

That is the closest that I could find. I don't have an English-Sindarin list, so I think that we can safely assume that, in Quenya, Elves used these terms to refer to babies or children.

Well i have a gift for thee then, in Sindarin these are possible names:

Chîn - Children (You could have guessed this as it appears in Narn i·Chîn Hurin "Tale of the Children of Hurin"

ui - Young (Or "ei ui", Too Young)

Eldar gwain - New Elf

I hope that helped.

(And now for all you others who want Elvish, Entish or Adûnaic translations, go to http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/index.html and learn the Languages!)

[Legolas]

So what if Elladan and Elrohir went to Valinor, married the elf next door, and had children? Would the choice have to be extended to them as well, because they had mortal blood, and to their children and grandchildren?

Nothing is ever stated (that I can think of) about this, but it seems logical that once in Aman, the line would immortal without question.

[Saraphim]

Thanks, symestreem. That was really bothering me.

I have a question. Does being half-elf constitute having the 'choice', like Luthien, or is it that one of thier parentswas human and one was an elf, like Earendil? But then again, Earendil had the choice too.

I'm glad Tolkien didn't make things too difficult for his fans.

(Kidding. If it wasn't so complicated, it wouldn't be as fun to talk about.)

[Legolas]

Being 'half elven' genetically does not mean a being has a choice between mortality and immortality. *Only* Earendil's family was given the choice, and it would not extend forever - the choice would stop with Elrond's offspring. The family was only given this privelege by way of Earendil's great deeds and the impression it left on the Valar.

Additionally, aside from a strange pairing that led to the line of the Princes of Dol Amroth, elves and men did not reproduce - literally a three-time event (Beren-Luthien/Tuor-Idril/Imrazor-Mithrellas). It was far from 'often' or 'occasional' - not even frequent enough to be described as 'rare.' Three times in history...that's all.

like Luthien, or is it that one of thier parentswas human and one was an elf, like Earendil? But then again, Earendil had the choice too.

Luthien only had the choice after she and Beren both died...Luthien was not half mortal. She was simply given the choice because of her great deeds - it was a favour to her from Eru. This is entirely separate of the half-elven choice.

[I think some of this misunderstanding stems from the movies and their portrayal of Arwen - she is made out to be an elf who is trying to decide if she wants to give up being immortal to be with a mortal...this leads to the misconception that elves have the ability to become mortal if they wish. Not even the Valar have the power to change this...Eru himself has the sole power.]

[symestreem]

New hypothetical situation:
Say Elladan or Elrohir stays in Middle-earth (with Elrond) and had a kid (perhaps we could call a young elf 'edhelhon' or 'edhilhon' child or children of elves respectively). Since he did not to Aman, the immortality would still be in question. Would this child then be extended the same choice as its father, or would it simply have to choose whether or not to leave Middle-earth with its father or grandfather?

Along similar lines, if elves and men are the same species, then you could theoretically breed someone with the physical traits of an elf, but mortal, from men.

These half-elven are really confusing. Tolkien seems to have a lot of contradictory information on them. But, the discussion is fun!