Nebulous "It" and Absolutes

[Dininziliel]

Davem,

I think if Eru/God/Love/The Universe could be held accountable for doing wrong, and thus eligible to be sued for pardon, Jesus would have come down from the cross, else he was a most insane fanatic. On a lesser scale, there could have been no LotR.

It is a matter of acceptance, pure & simple. This is not the limited level of "that's all right then."

The journey from thinking God responsible for the wrongness in life to acceptance of God's will is pretty much what LotR is all about. Tolkien repeatedly explained that its central theme was Death vs. Immortality: Men's acceptance of death, the Elves' acceptance of the "long defeat", and the consequences of attempting to usurp Eru's/God's place with the intention of altering these fates--death being the most historically perceived "wrong" thanks to the skillful wielding of fear. If we kept faith & behaved as we were created, we would not be having this discussion; instead, we chose to believe illusions which fatten on our fear and make the world most of us experience.

The ones worthy to be forgiven are the people you see, talk to, sit next to, write to, read the writings of, think of, and are one of. It is because of our own free will that the world is a cruel, harsh, and most unfair place. IMHO, this is precisely why Tolkien made the whole story pivot on pity & mercy. This was certainly Frodo's journey, and though at the end he may have been irreparably scarred, he was not bitter, nor did he say, "If only I'd known," or "I wish it had never happened," or even "I wish it had not happened to me." It was because of his pity--an inherent part of acceptance--that he could be healed. He may have failed at Doom, but he completed the larger journey. And so can we all.

[davem]

Dininziliel

I can see all your points, & from the perspective of faith, they are correct. But faith, as Tolkien stated, is trust, Hope without guarantees. It is faith that God, loving us & desiring our happiness, but also our spiritual growth - well, growth into our full humanity - will make all things well in the end.

Tolkien, in LotR, has Frodo, after the destruction of the Ring tell Sam 'Its like things are in the world, hopes fail, an end comes. And from the perspective of our life here, in the world, that is a fact. Its not the only fact - there is love, joy, here in the world. But it ends in death. as for there being anything beyond the circles of the world, we only have faith. So we can read LotR from a 'materialist'/athiest perspective, & we find it the story of an individual who is broken & dies as a result (going into the 'west' was always symbolic of dying in celtic myth). Hence is it inspires only a sense of the cruelty of fate & the deep 'wrongness' of the world. The only sense of joy that comes is joy beyond the walls of the world - he does not achieve happiness in this world. His 'spiritual growth brings sadness, resignation to the inevitability of suffering, evil & death (at least within Arda Marred) & desire to leave the world.

So, Tolkien is saying our true happiness (not only our ultimate destiny) is to be found only 'elsewhere'.

Quote. If we kept faith & behaved as we were created, we would not be having this discussion;

But this is exactly what Frodo does - to the fullest extent that he can - & he still suffers terribly, is broken, & 'dies' ( ok, dies to the world) & it is not a 'willing' death - one can will the sacrifice of ones life, but one does not will the death that comes as a consequence - does that make sense?

It seems to me that Tolkien is precisely not saying that if we lived as God willed we would be happy in this world. He is saying the opposite - this is Arda Marred, & whether we live according to Eru's will or not, we will suffer, because suffering is part of it - it is simply 'like things are in the world'.

But here we must perhaps separate ME from this world - the Bible tells us that we (as decendants of our 'primal parents') are responsible for the Fall, & must be redeemed. We have brought our sufferings on ourselves. In ME, Arda was marred before it was even given material form. Melkor spoiled it & introduced evil & contention into the blueprint - but Eru then chose, knowing the suffering that would result for all those, Elves, Men, Dwarves, Hobbits who would be born into it. God creates a perfect world which then 'falls' as a result of human free will & defiance. Eru creates a world which has corruption & evil already present in it from before its creation. So, while we cannot hold God accountable for suffering & evil in this world, we can at least question whether Eru bears any responsibility for the wrongness in ME.

[symestreem]

Premise:
Eru acts in good ways.

Assumption:
Eru is good.

Assumption:
He wants good for people.

Assumption:
Being omnipotent, he chose the best possible course for the universe.

Assumption:
Something worse would have happened if he'd done otherwise.

Assumption:
He can't be blamed for the bad stuff.

[davem]

Well, Eru, is not 'God' in this world. Eru doesn't create a 'good' world. Eru propounds a 'good' theme to the Ainur, which Melkor attempts to corrupt. Eru combats this. Melkor fights back, etc.

The Music reaches a certain point, Eru calls a halt, & then creates Arda, based on the Music - not his original 'good' concept of Arda, but from the Music which contains Melkor's theme(s).

So, from the point Arda comes into being, it is 'Marred'. So, Arda has never been 'Unmarred'. As I said Arda was never 'good'. Hence, apart from the original form it had in the mind of Eru at the first propounding of the original theme. So Eru atually creates Arda Marred, which is His choice - accepting that He did not introduce the Marring. He creates Arda Marred, knowing it is Marred, knowing that suffering must be the lot of those who will inhabit it.

So the question arises, why? Is it because He has some sense, or has come to some realisation, that in creating the Ainur, some of whom, in being seduced by Melkor, are 'flawed', or prone to being flawed/seduced by pride/evil that he is not a very 'good' creator - that the potental for creating 'flawed' or Marred beings exists within Him, & has to be worked out in a physical 'arena'?

God creates a good world, which is then Marred by 'our' fall. Eru creates an already fallen world. Eden (literally or metaphorically - depending on how fundamentalist one's interpretation of Genesis is) existed. Perfection was, it existed as a 'fact', whereas Arda Unmarred only ever existed as a possibility, an idea, in the mind of Eru, & was corrupted by Melkor before it was made.

We have thus two completely different concepts of Deity. In this world, because Eden once existed as a 'fact', it is shown to be possible. Arda Unmarrred can only be a 'hope' for the inhabitants of ME, because, beyond the original idea, it never existed physically.

So, if Eru intentionally creates a fallen world, is He not responsible for that choice? The Fall of Adam & Eve was optional - they didn't have to choose a fallen world for themselves & their decendents - so, the 'choice' of living in a fallen or unfallen world was made by those who will live in it. In Arda the choice is imposed by Eru, & the Children are born into a world already fallen, & have no choice in the matter. In this world, we struggle to make the best of our fall, which we bear responsibility for. In Arda the inhabitants live in a fallen world which fell before they came into being. Hence they never get the choice to live in an unfallen/un Marred Arda. All their choices are made in a fallen world, in response to its fallen state.

Of course, in the later writings, Tolkien seems to move away from this concept, plays it down. Men are shown to have 'chosen' to follow Melkor. But it is still not the Biblical account mythologised. Tolkien seems to be attempting to move the responsibility from Eru to Elves & Men, but the original choice of whether to create Arda according to His original theme, or according to the latest form of the Music, corrupted by Melkor lies ultimately with Eru.

If we then move to Frodo, & whether his suffering is essentially 'wrong', it all hinges on the existence or otherwise of a spiritual dimension. Put the spiritual/religious aspect on one side for a moment. What we have is the story of someone who by fate, or intent, is destroyed in his attempt to help others. He does the right thing & is broken by it, ends feeling a failure, sad, hopeless, & with his life ebbing away. The journey into the west would be symbolic of death. Deep feeling of 'wrongness', unfairness. Especially because even those he saves will also just die, & those they care about will just die, & all our hopes & dreams are lost (Atheism - we can choose that & resign ourselves to it - I remember reading an about an ancient Epicurean?? tomb inscription 'I was not. I have been. I am not. I do not mind' - or we can accept it & fall into despair about it, or just not think about it.)

Second option: Faith. Frodo does go through all that, but it is the Will of Eru. Frodo's sacrifice is not in vain. All he suffers is for some greater good, There is something beyond the circles of the World, some hope & happiness. But if we look at Frodo's final state from that perspective, do we feel its ok that he ended up as he did? Is there not some sense that it is wrong? Is there no sense that Eru is in any way responsible & to be held accountable?

If we were speaking of this world, there wouldn't be, because God made this world perfect - He saw that it was Good - so it was His intent that it should be Good, & that suufering shouldn't exist in this world - God cannot be criticised for this world's fall. But Eru, on the other hand, deliberately creates a fallen world, to 'show the Ainur what they have done'. Eru creates the world knowing Frodo will be broken, because he has created Arda knowing that Sauron will create the Ring, & that it will have to be destroyed. Christ is putting right something that shouldn't have gone wrong, because the Fall was not intended (even if known by God, He didn't choose it to happen. Eru, on the other hand, not only knows, but chooses to create Arda already Marred, & waiting for that Marring to manifest.

So, we can question Eru's motives, & responsibility, because they are different from God's.

And I think I've now inflicted enough theology on my poor readers for the present

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Be careful, davem, these are dark waters!

The argument of whether Eru = God has been debated for a long time,

I agree with you, davem, on many aspects,

I think that we can look at it this way;
Eru created the Ainor in Good intension, he listened to the first music and "It was good" Therefore his original plan for the earth was one of good, as shown in the first theme. But it was the discord of Melkor that is to blame for the eventuality of Evil in the world. Eru perhaps planed form the beginning to allow the Ainor to see their music, and gave them their free will to do with it what they would. Then there is the argument that He Knew that Melkor would arise in evil and change them music and yet still allowed it to happen. But then there is still the fact that he had the original plan of a perfect world as seen in the first theme. The fact that Frodo was left 'broken' at the end can be traced back to the discord of Melkor, without which, the world would be perfect still, there would still be the lamps, there would be no Melkor, no Sauron, no Ring, no lord of the rings, and no barrow downs discussion forums! (Dramatic music would be appropriate)

For arguments sake, lets assume Tolkien created Eru as a representation of God, How can we as mortals hope to understand the mind of a divine being? For we can say "God knows all that is and was and is to come yes? So he knew the devil would rebel and cause hurt to the world, so why would he create him?" Then if he left the world without evil there would be little hope for us as humans to have free will to chose between good and evil! Perhaps that is the same thing in the case of Eru in Tolkien’s world.

I think the point is, that Evil is essential to life. Without it we will not have free will to choose, and so Melkor, The devil and such are around to give us the choice of good or evil. As both in the Bible and in Tolkien's writing the evil is ultimately destroyed in battle, (aka, Armageddon and the Dagor Dargoth). SO we can see that Eru and God had the original intention of a perfect world, but knew that without evil, there would be no freedom for their children, but ultimately they will be rewarded for enduring evil after the final battle.

[Firefoot]

I don't think you can lay the blame on Ilúvatar.

[Ilúvatar] declared to them a mighty theme, unfolding to them things greater and more wonderful than he had yet revealed; and the glory of its splendour of its end amazed the Ainur, so that they bowed before Ilúvatar and were silent.
Then Ilúvatar said to them: "Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song."

The one option that doesn't seem to have been pointed out is that it could have been predetermined that Arda would be created. If this were so then the Music would have been the blueprints so to speak for Arda. Ilúvatar intended that this Music, the "blueprints" would be good. When the music started, and Ilúvatar declared his theme, it was good. All of the Ainur, even Melkor, were at this point good. Therefore, Ilúvatar completely intended for the music to be good. The music, was the beginning of the Creation. At this point, while it is unfolding prior to the dischord of Melkor, is when you have Arda Unmarred.

Then we come back to Frodo. I do not believe Frodo's suffering was Eru's will. It was because of the Dischord of Melkor, sin, that he had to suffer. It was Eru's mercy, his Divine Intervention, that he allowed the Ring to be destroyed - because of Frodo's willingness to sacrifice, and because of his mercy and pity to Gollum. Because of this, Eru allowed Frodo to have peace from the Ring, and grant that there may be healing beyond the confines of the world - whether in Valinor or even after. Tolkien doesn't specify what happens to Hobbits/Men after death, but maybe for Frodo there is healing. This would be Eru's mercy to him. It is wrong that Frodo had to suffer, but I do not think that Eru was to blame for this.

Our world is marred by our fall. Would it then be fair to say that Arda was marred by Melkor's fall? Arda unmarred was an option, and it could have been but for Melkor's dischord. We fell. We sinned. But when Christ came, he did not take sin from this world. Rather, he gave us salvation after death. Salvation and healing of all of our sins and hurts in this world. Perhaps this is how it works with Eru as well. Sin in Arda, but something better, perfect, afterwards. Frodo, I believe, found healing somewhere. When/how/where is not specified.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I must agree, Firefoot, Eru's Mercy is what saved Frodo from utter 'brokenness'. If Frodo had been driven completely mad by the ring, alike to Gollum, then the quest would not have been achieved. There again we can go into the idea of Devine intervention, as Gandalf says about Bilbo's finding of the ring;

"There were other powers at work that day, besides the will of evil"

Gandalf : The Fellowship of the ring - The shadow of the past

Then again it can be referring to the fact that Bilbo said, "What have I got in my pocket" at precisely the right time.
That suggests that Ilúvatar intervened in some way. So Then people begin to argue that this again removes the free will of Mortal races. But, as I have argued many times, the divine intervention is a guide, but men, elves and hobbit can use those guides wisely or unwisely depending on their choose.

Then again we can come around the fact that Iluvatar knew what was going to happen, he knew what they were going to chose to do, but I don’t think we can fully understand his mind.

As you said Firefoot, God sent his son to die for us to make up for the fall and the treachery of Satan so that his children may have salvation. (This is very appropriate being Easter, sorry i thought I’d point that out), So no, the blame does not belong to Eru / God, he obviously loves his children, and sent his son to die for us. and in the words of Gandalf "That is an encouraging thought".

Ps: This is my 51st post, so I’m now a haunting spirit! (Does ghost gestures and then sits down in embarrassment)