Sauron, devoted servant of Melkor?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Thorongil, we are speaking hypothetically.

I personally am in two minds about this. On the one hand, Sauron's desire was for power and ruler ship, which was how Morgoth corrupted him. But on the other, If Sauron realised that he could not do the deed on his own he would have released Morgoth.

But as you said, Thorongil, How he would do this we cannot say, perhaps send a Nazgul to kill Earendill or something... But that’s not the point.

As to the original question, I don't believe he would've done so. Sauron was pretty fixed upon world domination and as already stated, Morgoth would've seriously upset his agenda.

Even though he learned everything evil from Morgoth, he would've betrayed him. Who's to say he wasn't doing that even when Morgoth was still free?

Could he have done without the Valar knowing?

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

If Sauron possessed the power to go into the void and fetch Morgoth from it, he would have been more powerful than Morgoth, or any of the Valar for that matter, and it would have been inevitable that the Valar would deal with him themselves if he was so mighty.

Personally, I don't think there would be any way Sauron would do anything more than use Morgoth's name. The Men of Numenor were honest and true, and probably not easily deceived. If Sauron wanted to trick Ar-Pharazon into waging war on the Valar he needed a legitimate story to tell him, and what better way to secure the success of his own diabolical plan then to use the name of Melkor, which if they looked, the historians could presumably actually find something on about how he rivalled the Valar in strength and power.

After he was defeated by Huan, Sauron fled into the east and did not show up again until thousands of years later, when he had begun ammassing forces in Mordor. He didn't return, he didn't give Morgoth the news of Beren and Luthien, and when he watched the Valar arrive in the War of Wrath, he nearly repented (but didn't), but didn't join his former master's forces and face utter destruction of his own self. Sauron was a traitor.

And then, he even had the gall to take his fallen former master's title as his own when his pride grew large enough. It's obvious he didn't intend on Morgoth's return - he was the Dark Lord from now on.

And like Hookbill mentioned back in the second post, Sauron didn't even have the same plans as Morgoth. Even when he worked for the lord of anarchy and evil, he was in charge of ordering and keeping everything neat. When he got his own fort after the sack of Minas Tirith on Tol Sirion, it wasn't the house of filth Angband was, it was an eerie isle of sorcery, with werewolves in the dungeons and stalking the fir forests around it.

[Lord Halsar]

I seem to remember a line in the Silmarillion that always made me think each time I read it. Though I cannot remember it exactly, I remember clearly that when the Valar attempted to destroy the temple to Melkor that Sauron had built on Numenor, he was able to stop the lightning set against its roof and the Numenorians "were amazed and thought him a god." This made me wonder, was Sauron powerful enough to halt the will of the Valar? Or was it something much less complex?

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

I believe here's your quote:

Then men grew afraid. 'Behold the Eagles of the Lords of the West!' they cried. 'The Eagles of Manwe are come upon Numenor!' And they fell upon their faces.

Then some few would repent for a season, but others hardened their hearts, and they shook their fists at heaven, saying: 'The Lords of the West have plotted against us. They strike first. The next blow shall be ours!' These words the King himself spoke, but they were devised by Sauron.

Now the lightnings increased and slew men upon the hills, and in the fields, and in the streets of the city; and a fiery bolt smote the dome of the Temple and shore it asunder and it was wreathed in flame. But the Temple itself was unshaken, and Sauron stood there upon the pinnacle and defied the lightning and was unharmed; and in that hour men called him a god and did all that he would. When therefore the last cortent came they heeded it little. For the land shook under them, and a groaning as of thunder underground was mingled with the roaring of the sea, and smoke issued from the peak of the Meneltarma. But all the more did Ar-Pharazon press on with his armament

Whew... Sauron seemed to have devised a Faraday's cage and hid in it while everyone else stuck to a lightning rod... But the point of Valar attempting to kill Sauron seemed rather moot. Afterall, they relinquished their command with regard to the doings of Men. The Valar seemed to be planning to destroy Numenor and Sauron in one shot, while rescuing what could be left of the faithful.

[The Sixth Wizard]

All Sauron wanted with the Numenoreans was for the Valar to destroy them. If he truly wanted to free Morgoth, wouldn't he bide his time, corrupting more and more men until he believed he had the power to confront the Valar? For surely the full power of Numenor was never going to be matched in any Third Age scenario. Sauron would never have sent the Men to their doom if he wanted Morgoth freed.

I quite like the idea of Sauron defying the lightning of the Valar. It seems an uncharacteristically brave, lead-by-example thing to do for a Dark Lord. Maybe Sauron conjured up that particular bolt himself, to break the spirit of the Men into obedience once and for all? It was a fiery bolt and unique.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Lord Halsar

I seem to remember a line in the Silmarillion that always made me think each time I read it. Though I cannot remember it exactly, I remember clearly that when the Valar attempted to destroy the temple to Melkor that Sauron had built on Numenor, he was able to stop the lightning set against its roof and the Numenorians "were amazed and thought him a god." This made me wonder, was Sauron powerful enough to halt the will of the Valar? Or was it something much less complex?

The thunderstorms, as I remember it, were an omen sent by the Valar. Another omen was clouds shaped like the eagles of Manwe. These thunderstorms were not intended to destroy the temple (wasn't the temple made of stone anyway?), or Sauron himself, rather to show the Numenorians that the path they were heading into was wrong (compare fex. with the biblical plagues in Egypt). Sauron at this time, with the One ring in his possession, was a powerful elemental force and I don't imagine him being a even a wee bit scared of a little bad weather.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by skip spence

The thunderstorms, as I remember it, were an omen sent by the Valar. Another omen was clouds shaped like the eagles of Manwe. These thunderstorms were not intended to destroy the temple (wasn't the temple made of stone anyway?), or Sauron himself, rather to show the Numenorians that the path they were heading into was wrong (compare fex. with the biblical plagues in Egypt). Sauron at this time, with the One ring in his possession, was a powerful elemental force and I don't imagine him being a even a wee bit scared of a little bad weather.

Yes, this was Sauron in his prime (well, not with thousand s of orcs, but in his own power terms definately). Remember, he could still change physical form then. I don't think he was as powerful as a Vala, but he was definately quite high up on the Maia power scale.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Yes, this was Sauron in his prime (well, not with thousand s of orcs, but in his own power terms definately).

(Kudos to Eönwë)

Gee, Sauron in his prime almost meet his match upteenth times, never with a Valar:

1. Felagund (Finarfin's son)

"Then befell the contest of Sauron and Felagund which is renowned. For Felagund strove with Sauron in songs of power, and the power of the King was very great; but Sauron had the mastery, as is told in the Lay of Leithian"- Of Beren and Luthien, The Silmarillion.

2. A cloak

"Then Sauron spring upon Luthien; and she swooned before the menace of the fell spirit in his eyes and the foul vapour of his breathe (Yuck). But even as he came, falling she cast a fold of her dark cloak before his eyes; and he stumbled, for a fleeting drowsiness came upon him."- Of Beren and Luthien, The Silmarillion.

He was owned, of course, by a Maia:

"But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom, nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor; and he took his foe by the throat and pinned him down. Then Sauron shifted shape, from wolf to serpent, and from monster to his own accustomed form; but he could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly."- Of Beren and Luthien, The Silmarillion.

I can't visualise that Sauron would ever gain enough strength to release Ol' Morgy, if he can't even take on a half-Maia's garment... But that aside, having rested enough from jet-lag after his holiday at Numenor, Sauron got owned by a motley crew:

'I was the herald of Gil-galad and marched with his host. I was at the Battle of Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, where we had the mastery: for the Spear of Gil-galad and the Sword of Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand. I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gilgalad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own.'- The Council of Elrond, LOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring.

I figured that Sauron only wanted a little sandbox of his own in Middle-Earth without any trouble from Manwe. He pro'ly shook his fists and yelled threats about letting Big Brother out if the big kids won't let him alone... Trouble is... They took his threat seriously...

"I'm TELLING!!!" - Sauron, rising in spirit form from the waves drowning Numenor.