LotR -- Book 1 - Chapter 08 - Fog on the Barrow-Downs

[Mithalwen]

This is not going to be very learned but I think that the Tom Bombadil bit is my least favourite part of LOTR ... the bit I would most happily chop ... maybe it is because I thought Old Man Willow and Barrow Wights were so scary when I first tried to read LOTR as a child .... it was the point where it became a whole different world to the Hobbit... but even now I don't feel he belongs .... and I find him irritating..... maybe it is the waterlily picking.... or the sub- "There was a lover and his lass" poetry....

[Aiwendil]

I can half agree with you, but all those writings remained unfinished, or they became theological tracts (Athrabeth), or they simply repeated or were re writings of already existing things.

But the tendency toward revision and leaving things unfinished is true of all the Silmarillion material, pre-LotR as well as post-LotR. And "Wanderings" and "Aldarion and Erendis" were wholly new, while the Narn and the revisions introduced a lot of new material. You're right, of course, that this isn't the place to discuss this in any depth, but it does have some bearing on your point about the loss of magic.

Mithalwen wrote:

or the sub- "There was a lover and his lass" poetry....

You do actually bring up an interesting point, and one that has some bearing on the Art vs. Nature conondrum. That is, though Tom is always speaking in verse and lapses into outright song very frequently, none of his poetry is particularly good. And I say this as someone who likes Tom Bombadil. When he rhymes, the rhymes are often forced (whatever would he do if he didn't have yellow boots?) and the meter is often uneven. Even the Hobbits are better poets than he - let alone "Earendil was a Mariner", Frodo's lament for Gandalf, or Sam's song in Cirith Ungol; I'd even take the Bath Song over Tom's stuff for sheer poetic value. So in the sense that he's constantly singing, Tom does seem tied to Art; but his Art is completely uncontrived - he doesn't even take the time to contrive it that the songs he sings are good songs; he simply sings without thought of artistic value. So perhaps he is one with Arda, and his songs do not represent any actual artistry or sub-creation on his part; they are simply part of him because he is part of Arda, and because Arda is the embodiment of the Ainulindale. He is not an Artist; he is Art. And Art does not have Artistry.

[Lalwendë]

I think one of the reasons I like this chapter so much is that it contains so much archaeological detail. Firstly, the landscape of the Barrow Downs is recognisable as that of the downs of southern England, an area rich in pre-history. To the south west of Oxford are the Lambourn Downs, where can be found the Seven Barrows. In addition, there is the Vale of White Horse, and nearby, Waylands Smithy, another barrow which tapers down to very small proportions at one end and has an entrance very like the barrow in which Frodo is trapped. In Cornwall there are mysterious barrow-like constructions called Fougous, which some archaeologists say were used as grain storage, and some say were used as places where people could go into trance and contact the dead. This makes me think of the hobbits lying in a state of trance, trapped in the barrow.

Tolkien, in addition to his impressive knowledge of languages and folklore, clearly knew much of archaeology and pre-history. The hill on which the hobbits take their lunch is like a henge (very like Arbor Low in Derbyshire), and there appear to be both longbarrows and roundbarrows, as in the Salisbury Plain landscape. Later in the book we also see the Rohirrim making use of burial mounds or barrows, which is also interesting.

Does Tom Bombadil end up acting as a grave-robber/archaeologist after his rescue of the hobbits? He causes the barrow to partially collapse, and he removes the treasures. Not only that, but he leaves treasures open to the air on top of the barrow. This itself has a link to pre-history as one form of burial was to leave bodies on hillsides so that animals may eat the remains - thus sending the spirit of the deceased back to 'earth'.

The other reasons I like this chapter include the language, which is wonderful, including this:

Frodo heard a sweet singing running in his mind; a song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver, until at last it was rolled back, and a far green country opened before him under a swift sunrise.

Finally, from the first moment I ever read this chapter, I have found it eerie and chilling. I am in a way glad it was cut from the film as I don't think I would have liked a film interpretation to interfere with what is an enduring nightmare for me. A nightmare I rather like, though.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Yes Estelyn, that phase also stood out for me, so very original a thought! And so descriptive as well.

The night was railing against the morning of which it was bereaved, and the cold was cursing the warmth for which it hungered.

And I agree with Heren Istarion that Bombadil and the Wight seem to be echoing the Ainulindale, and following the course of their respective orientation in the song. And though, at least in Tom case, the songs seem somewhat childlike, as Aiwendil put it with forced rhyme, they still hold power. And as he himself says, his songs are stronger, likely because they stem from Illuvatar as opposed to Melkor. I think this is where I would part ways with this thought. But I still purpose that he is a created, rather than creating force. As for Gandalf holding him in respect, if Tom were some form of unfallen creation, he would reflect Illuvatar’s intent unblemished, just as his song reflects the Ainulindale, and would be honored for that I should think.

There is a purposeful and jarring juxtaposition between Tom and his simple songs/ways and his age/knowledge. It does not seem to fit at all. And I don’t think this simplicity was just an unfortunate choice on Tolkien’s part. Didn’t Galahad also seem a bit annoying? And his naming of the ponies was also a strange thing, like Adam naming animals. (But I am go off the deep end now, and it's quite alright to say so! )

The idea of Frodo’s experience in the Barrow as a rebirth is a new one for me davem, many thanks! I will have to reread now with that in mind, to see what else there is to be gleaned in the transformation!

And Laiwende, Thanks for your sharing the landscape around southern England! Your mention of Tom as an archaeologist struck me also, in that Tom removed treasure from the barrow, but the hobbits were the treasure he seemed to value more.

Out of curiousity, does anyone know if the significance of the brooch Tom picked out was further explained somewhere else?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Hilde, Tolkien didn't explain anything about the brooch, but we did our best to make up for that on this discussion: Bombadil's brooch

[HerenIstarion]

And as he himself says, his songs are stronger, likely because they stem from Illuvatar as opposed to Melkor

Basically, yes. Minor point - all songs, ultimately, find their source in Illuvatar. It the perversion/lack thereof which makes the right songs stronger (and that in the long run only - cf Felagund/Sauron again)

[Firefoot]

I think the point of "passing the barrows on the west side" was discussed briefly in the Chapter 7 thread, but I would like to point some more things out here as pertain to this chapter. First of all, when the hobbits come upon that stone where they eat lunch by and fall asleep against, they sit with their backs to the east side. Warning bells, anyone? When they wake up, their is a cold gray shadow over them stretching out easterward (because of the sun setting in the west). Also, because of the sun, the fog on the western side of the hollow is not so thick or white. The hobbits get up and try to get away from the Barrow-downs, and Frodo becomes separated. The wind is blowing from the east, and the Barrow-wight that finds him also looms up on his right, and since he is going north, that too came from the eastern side. Tom's warning seems to have been proven true indeed! It rather makes me wonder what would have happened if the hobbits had taken their rest on the west side of the stone instead.