the pride of feanor

[Carnimírië]

An interesting point you raise is what would have become of Feanor if the jewels had been broken. Would he have been less fiery, less purposeful in that event?

Well Fëanor said that if the silmarils were broken he would die, first of all the Eldar in Aman. That would be a great loss because Fëanor is my favorite Elf. But maybe he was speaking in hyperbole. Maybe he would't necessarily die if the silmarils were broken. What do you all think?

[turgon]

"not the First" so said mandos. Personally I think it was hyperbole. He would have been chastened in spirit. and perhaps forged to a higher sheen. But my original thought was that the ages beyond the third would never have taken place. The music of the ainur would have been cut short on a foul note had feanor been complacent. and would have served melkor ultimately buy complying to the valar. this would have Allowed morgoth the time to subjugate the world to his will while the valar tarry beyond the boundaries of the mortal world. Melian and Thingol would be overwhelmed thus no beren and luthien no Tuor and no Aragorn.
Fingolfin perhaps would have been emboldend but he would not circumvent the will of manwe as he percieved it. emphasis on percieve. (fingolfin my fav).
Please forgive misspelling

[yavanna II]

Originally Posted by Carnimírië

Well Fëanor said that if the silmarils were broken he would die, first of all the Eldar in Aman. That would be a great loss because Fëanor is my favorite Elf. But maybe he was speaking in hyperbole. Maybe he would't necessarily die if the silmarils were broken. What do you all think?

I think so... and I think that he would've given up the sils if his daddy wasn't killed by Morgy, by the way.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

But why would he die if the jewels were broken?

[turgon]

I don't think he would have physically. and thats a good point by yavanna. But his spirit would have. which I think would have served Melkor much more then anything else.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

The breaking was kinda a moot point because even as Feanor spoke, his father was being slain and the Silmarilli stolen by Morgoth. Obviously, though, Feanor's decision had a great impact on his next big decision...

I feel certain that if the Noldor had stayed home instead of chasing Morgoth and the Silmarils, the Sindar and the Edain would not have thus been doomed. I don't believe the Valar would neglect them and leave them to the tyranny and oppression of the Great Enemy, and even if they did, Eru Iluvatar certainly would not.

This all is entwined with the Great Music. In Eru's plan, even evil would ultimately work for good. We can be sure that it was not his plan for the Noldor to rebel against the Valar and go back to Middle-earth, but he still used it for good, as they began the War of the Great Jewels against Morgoth, which preserved the lives of the Sindar and the Edain. We can be equally certain that if the Noldor had not left Valinor, everything would still have worked out all right (as all right as it can be, anyway) in the end.

As a Catholic, Tolkien was a strong believer in the sovereignty of God, and this definitely carries over in The Silmarillion. His God is a flexible one, whose plans are ultimately disrupted by the shortcomings of his creatures. This is the context in which we must view the rebellion of the Noldor.

[Numenorean]

Really intriguing post Turgon, and welcome too.

Elladan:

I feel certain that if the Noldor had stayed home instead of chasing Morgoth and the Silmarils, the Sindar and the Edain would not have thus been doomed. I don't believe the Valar would neglect them and leave them to the tyranny and oppression of the Great Enemy, and even if they did, Eru Iluvatar certainly would not.

I do not know how you can be so absolutely certain given that:

a) The Valar displayed great naiveity when dealing with Melkor/Morgoth - they seemed to lack the ability to comprehend the nature and reality of his evil purpose. Even after he masterminded the destruction of the Trees, the rape of the Silmarils and the abhorrent slaying of Finwe in their Holy Realm, they were desperately inactive in their response. Surely the time for War of Wrath was before Morgoth had a chance to return entrenched to his fortress dungeon, rebuild his dark legions and ruin so many more innocents in the meantime?

b) Beleriand was about to fall anyway just before the timely and unlooked for return of the Noldo and their great victory at the Battle-under-Stars.

c) The only Valar who had any direct dealings with Men (before Tuors meeting with Ulmo on the shores of Nevrast) was Morgoth, and according to HoME this brought about their first - and in some cases permanent - fall.

d) The supposition that even if the Valar deserted Men, Eru would not, is based purely on faith. Everything came forth from Eru, good and evil besides, so relying purely on the goodwill of an unfathomable entity whose essense clearly contains both light and dark seems a bit like wishful thinking.

e) Tolkien was a Catholic but he stated time and again that he hated allegory and direct comparrisons between his Legendarium and his real world faith. So to say that the only way to view the rebellion of the Noldor is within the context of our worlds Catholicism seems seriously open to debate.

Maybe I'm too cynical today and I'm sorry if this seems a bit contentious Elladan, its just that I cant remotely presume let alone be certain that: "if the Noldor had not left Valinor, everything would still have worked out all right (as all right as it can be, anyway) in the end."

[the phantom]

Men came when the sun rose... the sun was born because the trees died... so if Feanor used his sils to keep the trees alive then there would be no men, right?

It seems to me that the trees were supposed to die, and Feanor's refusal to wear his jewels to the feast (which allowed Morgoth to steal them and take them out of reach) ensured that the trees would die and that men would soon awaken.

and would have served melkor ultimately buy complying to the valar. this would have Allowed morgoth the time to subjugate the world to his will while the valar tarry beyond the boundaries of the mortal world. Melian and Thingol would be overwhelmed thus no beren and luthien no Tuor and no Aragorn.

I agree.

I feel certain that if the Noldor had stayed home instead of chasing Morgoth and the Silmarils, the Sindar and the Edain would not have thus been doomed.

Why?

When Feanor arrived in Beleriand it was days (maybe hours) away from being conquered. There were two safe places left, with Cirdan and with Thingol- and Cirdan was just about finished when the orcs attacking him were drawn off by Feanor and his sons.

And what chance did Doriath, unaided, have against Morgoth, Sauron, the Balrogs, and their armies of orcs?

And once Doriath is gone, what's left? Roaming dark-elves with crap weapons? I don't think they'd last long. Only the dwarves in their caves would survive, but Morgoth would likely go after them as soon as he was able.

We can be sure that it was not his plan for the Noldor to rebel against the Valar and go back to Middle-earth

We can be sure? Here's what Tolkien said-

If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reëstablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm....[at the time of the War of Wrath] Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind...he had fallen to like being a tyrant king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.

It appears that is was the best plan for the Noldor to chase Morgoth.

I don't believe the Valar would neglect them and leave them to the tyranny and oppression of the Great Enemy

Why? The Valar don't have a good track record when it comes to dealing with Morgoth. This was what Tolkien said about the first time Melkor was captured by the Valar-

Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel

As you can see, the Valar have a history of dragging their feet. All of Middle-Earth probably would've been under Morgoth's foot by the time they decided to do something. Don't put so much faith in the Valar and Manwe. Tolkien said this about Manwe-

[Manwë] has become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering-- even "keeping the status quo"- to the loss of all creative power, and even to weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations.

Hee hee. If you want to put absolute faith in someone who has "weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations", then go ahead, but don't expect me to agree.