The Three Elven Rings

[Fingolfin II]

My guess is that your second guess is probably closer to the truth out of the two. The One Ring was the master Ring; it controlled the others and could bring them together to the person who held it- in this case, Sauron.

Even though Celebrimbor forged the Three Rings without any direct aid from Sauron (apart from the lore and crafts Sauron taught him), the One Ring still controlled the Elven Rings and all the other Great Rings (the Nine and the Seven). Sauron placed a lot of his own power into the One Ring in order to be dominate the other Rings. Therefore, when he is power is dissipated, so too would the power of all the other Rings, including the three. Let me give you a basic example- if something happens to your local electricity generator, then there's no power to light up the lightbulbs.

Thus, the Three Rings - along with the rest of the Great Rings - really became tied to the power of the One and once that source was gone, well, so was their power also. This leads to the question of why then could the Elves use the Rings without being detected while the One was still in existence? Well, two reasons-

a) Sauron didn't possess the One Ring at that time, so he couldn't 'bind' all the Rings to his power. Remember, as soon as Sauron spoke the words inscripted on the Ring in the Sammath Naur that Celebrimbor was aware of his plans and took off the Rings immediately.

b) Frodo, Gollum, Isildur and Bilbo didn't try to find the Three Rings and didn't have the power to, albeit that the Ring gave Frodo the 'power' to see Galadriel's Ring in Lothlorien.

Anyway, I'm diverging, so I'll leave you with a quote that doesn't really explain much, but is still interesting, coming from one of the Wise-

'But what then would happen, if the Ruling Ring were destroyed, as you counsel?' asked Gloin.
'We know not for certain certain,' answered Elrond sadly. 'Some hope that the Three Rings, which Sauron has never touched, would then become free, and their rulers may heal the hurts of the world that he has wrought. But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief.'

In the end, that's what happened.

[Alchisiel]

That's kind of what I thought. It would have been nice, however, if the elven rings had kept their power. It saddens me that the elves left Middle Earth. Without them the magic of Middle Earth is gone.

I think that it was extremely unselfish of them to aid the fellowship as they did knowing that the destruction of the ring could/would bring about the destruction of all that they had known.

[gorthaur_cruel]

Well, for them, it was a choice between Sauron's dominion or the loss of the Elven powers. I think anybody'd choose the second option.

[luthien-elvenprincess]

That doesn't make sense to me. I would think that since Sauron didn't make them and had nothing to do with making them why would the destruction of the master ring bring the destruction of the other rings? The only thing I can think of is because Sauron instructed the elves in their craft of making all of the rings that the others can be destroyed,

I am just a little confused...are you saying that Sauron had nothing to do with the making of the Rings of Power, or that he did by instructing them in their craft? I sounds like you are saying both. I am missing something here. Please help me understand what you are saying.

Following are a couple of quotes from The Silmarillion:

...(the Noldor in Eregion) hearkened to Sauron, and they learned of him many things, for his knowledge was great. In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.
Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into the One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency;

As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off thier rings. But he, finding that he was betrayed and that the Elves were not deceived, was filled with wrath; and he came against them with open war, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel

It was Sauron's teaching that enabled the elves to craft the Rings of Power. The Three Rings crafted by Celebrimor alone were only able to be made because Sauron shared his superior knowledge. Therefore, he did have a part in their making, although not in a physical, hands-on manner.

[Boromir88]

Wonderfully explained Fingolfin, also maybe a key in hiding the Three Elven rings is their secrecy. While on their bearers hands the rings were invisible (except to the One ringbearer), then when the one is destroyed, you can spot the 3 rings on their fingers, showing their loss of power.

Besides the invisibility, Aragorn warns Frodo not to speak about the Elven rings. So the Elves were able to keep them a secret, of course they had to.

[Nukapei]

This has confused me as well, and the explanation I came up with was similar. But, important is the fact that Sauron taught the Elves how to make their Rings! Maybe he knew they'd try to make their own, maybe he didn't. I haven't read that many passages on this subject -- most of my knowledge is second-hand. However, it seems to me that, even while he was teaching the Elves this craft, he would know that there was at least the possibilty one of them would do something like this. And, call Sauron a lot of things, but dumb he ain't. If this thougth had crossed his mind, he probably would've done something about it. So, it's possible that he might, might, have taught the Elves to make Rings of Power a specific way, with a fall-safe installed that anything they made using his methods would automatically be tied into any Master Ring(s) he might make in the future. Just a thought!

[Fingolfin II]

Originally posted by Nukapei.
But, important is the fact that Sauron taught the Elves how to make their Rings! Maybe he knew they'd try to make their own, maybe he didn't. I haven't read that many passages on this subject -- most of my knowledge is second-hand. However, it seems to me that, even while he was teaching the Elves this craft, he would know that there was at least the possibilty one of them would do something like this.

The thing is, Sauron forged the One Ring after the Three were forged. And after the Nine and the Seven, for that matter. He had already ideas for domination through instructing the Elves in this craft and his plans came to fulfilment when he made the One Ring in Orodruin.

The whole reason for Sauron instructing Celebrimbor and the other Elven-smiths was so that he could betray them and rule all the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth through the One Ring; he didn't teach the Elves out of the kindness of his heart.

So, it's possible that he might, might, have taught the Elves to make Rings of Power a specific way, with a fall-safe installed that anything they made using his methods would automatically be tied into any Master Ring(s) he might make in the future.

An interesting idea, but I don't think it matters in which particular way he taught the Elves to make the Rings, because either way he would rule them all through the Great Ring- that was his fail-safe. The One Ring is how he bound all the Great Rings to his power. Sauron had a hand in actually forging the Nine and the Seven Rings, yet he didn't ever touch the Three, but they were still bound to the One. This brings up the question; what if the Elves made more Rings to govern their race after the One was forged?

However, I'm straying off topic here, so I'll repeat my answer to the original question posed by Alchiesel that once the power of the One Ring was destroyed, the power that the Three Rings possessed through their domination by the One would also be lost.

[Nukapei]

Originally Posted by Fingolfin II

An interesting idea, but I don't think it matters in which particular way he taught the Elves to make the Rings, because either way he would rule them all through the Great Ring- that was his fail-safe. The One Ring is how he bound all the Great Rings to his power. Sauron had a hand in actually forging the Nine and the Seven Rings, yet he didn't ever touch the Three, but they were still bound to the One. This brings up the question; what if the Elves made more Rings to govern their race after the One was forged?

Yeah, good point. I wonder if the One Ring controlled all Rings of Power in general, or just the ones he and the Elves made? Moot point, because no one else made any, I know, but an interesting thought nonetheless.

What I'm wondering, though, is what would happen if the Elves made another Three after Sauron's complete destruction. Would they be able to regain what was lost when the Three lost their power? They probably wouldn't have done that, though, even if they thought of it, and even if any Elf still lived that knew how, afraid that another Sauron would come along and just make another One.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Boromir

(...) While on their bearers hands the rings were invisible (except to the One ringbearer), then when the one is destroyed, you can spot the 3 rings on their fingers, showing their loss of power.

Besides the invisibility, Aragorn warns Frodo not to speak about the Elven rings. So the Elves were able to keep them a secret, of course they had to.

In a letter Tolkien noted that the Three did not confer invisibility. Technically that might just mean that they do not make the wearers invisible, but why make the Three themselves invisible and stop there?

In The Grey Havens it was said that Gandalf now openly wore his ring (this was a slight revision compared to the first edition): it might be interesting that this is added regarding Narya and not the other two, which are also noted as on the fingers of Elrond and Galadriel in this chapter. Granted why say it twice or three times that each now openly wore their rings; but on the other hand, for a long time the Three were already hidden in hidden Elven realms, while ultimately one was given to Gandalf, who wandered among many peoples -- and perhaps that was the reason behind noting this for Narya specifically.

In short, were the Three necessarily invisible?

I know the scene at Galadriel's mirror is suggestive of invisibility, but why should the Mirdain or Celebrimbor care to make the Three invisible before Sauron's plan was revealed? and yet not their wearers; why go only that far, considering that if 'invisibility power' were even part of the scenario, the Three were the most powerful in any event (though preservation power was admittedly key with these).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

I know the scene at Galadriel's mirror is suggestive of invisibility, but why should the Mirdain or Celebrimbor care to make the Three invisible before Sauron's plan was revealed? and yet not their wearers; why go only that far, considering that if 'invisibility power' were even part of the scenario, the Three were the most powerful in any event (though preservation power was admittedly key with these).

Even though Sam did not recognise Nenya for what it was, I don't think that suggests the ring itself had properties of invisibility. It was dark at the Mirror; Frodo saw the starlight glint on the ring's stone, and, having borne and worn the One, he knew what Nenya was.

The use of the Three by their keepers wouldn't seem to require the rings being invisible for secrecy to be maintained. The books say the Three were simply not used openly, nor were they discussed. If the rings themselves were invisible to all but their bearers, or the bearer of the One, why couldn't the Three have been used "openly" during the time of the watchful Peace, say? Who would have known?

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Even though Sam did not recognise Nenya for what it was, I don't think that suggests the ring itself had properties of invisibility. It was dark at the Mirror; Frodo saw the starlight glint on the ring's stone, and, having borne and worn the One, he knew what Nenya was.

I suspect Galadriel's pretense of being the evil dominating wielder of the One Ring had something to do with Frodo spotting Nenya. I believe she actively used Nenya before it was spotted, and used it as a light source. It's hard to be an invisible light source.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Even though Sam did not recognise Nenya for what it was, I don't think that suggests the ring itself had properties of invisibility. It was dark at the Mirror; Frodo saw the starlight glint on the ring's stone, and, having borne and worn the One, he knew what Nenya was.

That's a good point: although Earendil was said to be bright enough that Galadriel cast a dim shadow, it was still dark, and Frodo sees the ring when the starlight glanced off Nenya. And interestingly, the text does not say he suddenly saw Nenya, but that he saw it and suddenly understood.

The use of the Three by their keepers wouldn't seem to require the rings being invisible for secrecy to be maintained. The books say the Three were simply not used openly, nor were they discussed. If the rings themselves were invisible to all but their bearers, or the bearer of the One, why couldn't the Three have been used "openly" during the time of the watchful Peace, say? Who would have known?

I agree they don't need to be invisible, and I see no reason for Celebrimbor to have made them so initially. In one of Tolkien's letters (the Waldman letter), generally speaking I think invisibility power seems 'more connected' to Sauron, while as we know, the Three are distanced from Sauron and are said to be directed to preservation.

The 'problem' is that the second time Galadriel raises her arm Nenya issues a great light, and Sam somehow thinks this is a star...

... while Samwise was 'halfwise' and a simple hobbit, for some this seems 'too much' to accept (for him to have missed that it was a Ring, not a star) -- Sam may not have understood or certainly known Galadriel was revealing one of the great Three at this moment, but the argument is that he should have at least physically seen a ring.

I can 'see' that point, however I would argue that Sam's troubling vision had his attention before, and even after Nenya illuminated Galadriel... as evidenced by Sam's statement to Galadriel.

Anyone have opinions about that intepretation? Seem like too much? Tolkien doesn't really describe what Sam was doing while Galadriel and Frodo were talking, but the way he left Sam after his vision seems to imply (the possibility that) he need not be wholly engaged on what's going on right in 'front of him', so to speak.

If this could, at least in part, account for his answer to Nerwen Artanis.