Lord of the Rings, rated PGP

[Nukapei]

Hmm, good point, Formandacil. I had forgotten about the fact that Gandalf wasn't a man, just a maia in a man's form. And that the Balrog certainly wasn't "normal". I guess they could survive a fall like that!

[AbercrombieOfRohan]

I think this was mentioned on another thread but when Denethor lights himself on fire and in the next shot is shown falling off the cliff, wouldn't he have had to run like 300 yards in a matter of seconds? Perhaps Scotty's transporter is more popular than we all think...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by AbercrombieOfRohan

when Denethor lights himself on fire and in the next shot is shown falling off the cliff, wouldn't he have had to run like 300 yards in a matter of seconds?

He would have needed to run (while aflame) a lot more than 300 yards, given that his attempted self-immolation took place in a chamber in Rath Dinen, which is the other side of the White Tower. So, his route would have taken him up Rath Dinen, through (or past) the Citadel, across the courtyard and off the end. And he started off in the wrong direction. Now that takes either superhuman speed or superhuman fire-resistance.

Funnily enough, I only noticed this about the fourth time I watched the film, but now I'm aware of it it really irritates me. Still, the flaming jump off the edge was poorly conceived (as were many elements of the preceding scene) in any event. One of the low spots of RotK.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

He would have needed to run (while aflame) a lot more than 300 yards, given that his attempted self-immolation took place in a chamber in Rath Dinen, which is the other side of the White Tower. So, his route would have taken him up Rath Dinen, through (or past) the Citadel, across the courtyard and off the end. And he started off in the wrong direction. Now that takes either superhuman speed or superhuman fire-resistance.

Besides which, wasn't Rath Dinen on one of the lower levels of the City? I could be totally wrong (I haven't got a book in front of me to confirm with), but wasn't it supposed to be the lowest or second lowest level? I KNOW it was, as you already mentioned, supposed to be beside the mountains and not the Pelennor.

[Elianna]

Rath Dinen runs on behind the Citadel, closer to the mountain than the Citadal.

[Mithalwen]

Mind you if I was doing a fine impersonation of the final moments of Joan of Arc I might show a suprising turn of speed... so much so that if I were a horse, there would be a stewards enquiry.....

[Lalwendë]

It might depend upon whether he was combusting himself, rather than just his robes burning. If so he could stay alight for quite some time. Though he wouldn't be running anywhere, so that renders the argument incorrect. *scratches chin* Maybe there was another ring bestowing powers of invisibility and a small platoon of leprechauns were carrying him thither? Or perhaps one of the Fell Beasts picked him up and carried him there - that could be true because it was hopping from foot to foot when the Witch King confronted Gandalf, as though it had burned its toes.

By the same token - why do they have that big open gap in the walls of the top level of Minas Tirith? It serves no purpose apart from to make it easier for Denethor to do his diving act. It would have been much better if he'd actually tripped over a little low wall in his flammable frenzy. Even better if he'd slipped on a banana skin dropped by Pippin. Well, it was a comedy moment as it was, so why didn't they add a bit more humour?

[Nukapei]

Yeah, that part was a little unrealistic. The book version was much better, and more believable -- in it, he just burned.

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Mind you if I was doing a fine impersonation of the final moments of Joan of Arc I might show a suprising turn of speed...

Actually, the construction of the medieval pyre ensured that the condemmed almost inevitably succumbed to smoke inhalation long before the flames reached their bodies.

[Nukapei]

Originally Posted by Neurion

Actually, the construction of the medieval pyre ensured that the condemmed almost inevitably succumbed to smoke inhalation long before the flames reached their bodies.

Hmmm, didn't know that. Awful decent of them, wasn't it?

PS ~ that was sarcasm, folks.

[Faramir]

u guys its fantasy anything can happen...aragorn cant toss gimli but there can be ten thousand orcs 20 feet away from them? gandalf cant catch his sword because of gravity but he can ride a demon? gollum cant burn slowly in mount doom but he can be that kind of a "creature" ?
(im not trying to be rude)

[Nukapei]

Yeah, but fantasy's just another reality. Elves, dwarves, orcs, etc. don't exist, but if they did than LotR would be totally possible. At least, that's the idea! It's fun to post things here that we think go against that idea, then have others either add to it or dispute it.

[Encaitare]

aragorn cant toss gimli but there can be ten thousand orcs 20 feet away from them? gandalf cant catch his sword because of gravity but he can ride a demon? gollum cant burn slowly in mount doom but he can be that kind of a "creature" ?

Yes.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Well, when your fall is more than a certain height (100 ft, I think, though I may be pulling that number from thin air), unless you land juuuuust right, water is as hard as concrete. And I didn't exactly see him and the Balrog stop fighting long enough to make sure they hit the water right! Think about it in terms of the hardest bellyflop in recorded history. They'd snap their spine!

You've got a much higher chance of surviving a fall if a large object falls first and breaks the surface tension on the water before you hit it. It's roughly the same principle as the prow of a boat... only going down and not forward.

Hmm... I wonder what Gandalf could have thrown off the bridge that would hit the water first?

*envisions Istar using large firey (wingless) shield*

Sophia

[Essex]

Because gravity is an acceleration, not velocity, the longer you fall the faster you go.

only until you reach Terminal Velocity. (hey, that sounds like a great name for a film, doesn't it?)

PS, regarding gravity (which seems to be the main problem on this thread),

And of course certain basic principles apply, such as gravity -- thankfully!

who says middle-earth had the same gravity as our Earth? (yes, before you say it, I've heard it's meant to be Earth 10,000 years or so ago......) In a world where the elves only lived in starlight for a while, in a world where you can make someone invisible with a magic ring, in a world where some can have immortality, in a world that was once straight and now bent, in a world where you can get on a ship and travel away form the mortal coil, why can't we have Legolas shooting an arrow up at grima and hit him perfectly?

PPS re the beacons

those people live up there in the mountains where a blizzard can easily destroy those miserable huts?

This actually IS based on fact.

[Assasin]

Yes, Lalwende, that's exactly what I mean. Fantasy magic is really hard to understand.

[Elianna]

Originally Posted by Essex

In a world where the elves only lived in starlight for a while, in a world where you can make someone invisible with a magic ring, in a world where some can have immortality, in a world that was once straight and now bent, in a world where you can get on a ship and travel away form the mortal coil, why can't we have Legolas shooting an arrow up at grima and hit him perfectly?

Because as long as Middle-Earth has about the same radius as present Earth does and about the same mass, it would have the same gravitational acceleration. I doubt these things have changed about our Earth even in 10,000 yrs.

(And because I heart Gríma and do not wish to see him die needlessly at the hands of pretty-boy prince Orli.)

[AragornII]

Another thing about the Balrog and Gandalf. I have a book called The Complete Tolkien Companion, and it says that Balrogs were "spirits of fire" and that they of great size, "enshrouded in flame". So my question is how does Gandalf land on the Balrog if the Balrog is made of fire. Wouldn't he just burn up?
Also, I'm not too knowledgeable in physics, but would the sword really make a humming noise as it fell?