Do Balrogs Have Wings?

[mark12_30]

Child, you are eloquent, and thorough, and persuasive.

But if Balrogs were so groundbound, then why didn't Frodo (and the rest of the fellowship) just look at Gimli and say, "In the air?"

They had just as much reason to guess "Black Rider" as they did to guess "balrog". The reason they didn't guess "Nazgul" first is that they had no reason to suspect a Nazgul could fly; they'd always been on the ground before.

All the falling-from-mountainside arguments don't convince me. There are large birds that can fly, but need room, headwind and some luck to get off of the ground. (Canadian geese; swans.)



EDIT

You know, thirty years later, and here I am. Balrogs? I feel like a lounge-lizard. I can't believe I got sucked into this.

Wings, I tell you. Wings.

[obloquy]

What did the Fellowship really know about Balrogs, anyway? We know that, at the very least, the shadows looked like wings. That's all the Fellowship ever saw of Balrogs, so, whether Balrogs could fly or not, or had wings or not, the Fellowship only knew what they saw, which was a dark shape with wings (of shadow or otherwise). They may have seen it, but none of them knew anything about what they saw.

Maybe when Frodo said it was not a Balrog it was because he happened to know, where Gimli did not, that Balrogs cannot fly, since Frodo had spent his time in Rivendell educating himself.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Hookbill: Melkor did not create Balrogs.

Oh, did I say "Create"? Sorry, I kind of meant 'invented' if you take my meaning. No, he did not create them. But he did take those Maiar spirits and entrap them in those bodies as he did with many of his... inventions?... Like that of Carcharoth, a spirit trapped in the body of a wolf that was made huge by Melko.

That’s just my thinking.

Lyta_Underhill: is that an African or ... Oh... Never mind. (Python ROCKS!)

[obloquy]

"Invention" doesn't fit either. Melkor and the Balrogs were Ainur, beings of the same order, and although Melkor was mightier, Balrogs existed independent of him. He corrupted them, and maybe played a part in their incarnation, but credit for the "invention" of all Maiar goes exclusively to Eru.

I don't recall any mention of Melkor "trapping spirits" inside bodies, but I am pretty rusty. Could you provide some text to that effect?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Obloquy, You and your technicalities! What I mean was the guise of the Balrogs was invented by Melko... can we drop that now? Thank you.

(Roots through silm) Well, I couldn't find it, but I did prove myself wrong, as my Carcharoth statement was wrong... i just seem to remember Melko trapping things in bodies. I suppose one could look at Glaurung, as it says "The evil spirit that dwelt within him" spoke, that would seem to suggest, to me anyway, that Melko trapped things in other bodies. I may of course be completely miss reading.

I am sorry about that misunderstanding Obloquy.

[Neithan]

From the Sil,

and Sauron brought werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies.

[obloquy]

Obloquy, You and your technicalities! What I mean was the guise of the Balrogs was invented by Melko... can we drop that now? Thank you.

Maybe it was his design, but we can't say for sure.

Well, I couldn't find it, but I did prove myself wrong, as my Carcharoth statement was wrong... i just seem to remember Melko trapping things in bodies.

You weren't far off. Thanks to Neithan's research, we have indication that Melkor did trap spirits in bodies.

I am sorry about that misunderstanding Obloquy.

Hey, it's nothing! I don't want you to feel like I jumped on you, I just like to keep things accurate in case someone who doesn't know any better is following along.

Edit: The quote is good enough for me here since it is sort of off-topic, but if that was a key point in the discussion, I would ask for you to find the original reference in HoMe. The '77 Sil can sometimes be misleading; see Underhill's article on Gothmog's troll-guard for a case in point.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

...to fly in vampire's form...

But what is vampire form? Is it a man in black evening dress, top hat and red velvet lining to his cloak with wings attached to his back, or rather a batlike animal life form (with maia spirit in) with a body specifically designed to fly? If the former, I'll accept wings on a balrog gladly...

Originally Posted by obloquy

Maybe when Frodo said it was not a Balrog it was because he happened to know, where Gimli did not, that Balrogs cannot fly, since Frodo had spent his time in Rivendell educating himself.

I don't think so I always imagined (stress on imagine, it's my personal feeling), that what Frodo felt is what Frodo felt - that is, balrog was different from what Nazgûl felt like (by feel) - former fierce and fiery, latter cold and dreary (like, I can tell the difference if I close my eyes and wet my hands, whether it is a water I dip my fingers in or, say, oil or any other liquid). I entanlge myself in words with the hope you follow my meaning - his knowledge of the difference was by heart, rather than by mind/acquired data. After all, it is stated several times that bearing the Ring Frodo grew more perceptive.

[Mister Underhill]

I'll hold you to that, HI, since the "vampire form" is certainly a bat or bat-like creature.

oblo, I think it was that old shoulder wound, and not a class on Balrog physiognomy that he audited in Rivendell, that told Frodo that the flying thing was a Nazgûl on the wing. (Look at me, I'm a poet and I didn't even know it.)

EDIT: Ai, cross-posting domino-effect with HI. Forgive the redundancy...

[Child of the 7th Age]

As far as the Chamber of Mazarbul -- there's no reason to think that wings would make a stitch of difference as to whether or not a winged or unwinged Balrog would be able to pass through the door. Why wouldn't a Balrog, like any winged creature, be able to fold its wings into its body? By the same logic, no garden-variety songbird should be able to fit through the round hole of a bird-house.

Mr. Underhill -

Everything that Tolkien tells us indicates that the chamber was very large. Certainly, a term like "cavernous" suggests a hall of immense proportions.

I agree that the Balrog would be able to fold his wings back. The real issue here is the wingspan to body ratio. It's my understanding that every flying creature in existence has a ratio of roughly 3 to 1 in terms of wings and body. Let's make the width of the hall smaller just to be fair, since we do not have specific dimensions. If the hall was 75 feet across instead of 100, that would make the wings 75 feet outstretched, and the Balrog 25 feet high. There's no way a 25 foot Balrog gets through that door, even if his wings (which he doesn't have ) are folded flat.

Also, a twenty-five foot Balrog doesn't seem to fit well with anything else we know. I believe we have just two references to how tall Balrogs were. One early passage in HoMe describes a Balrog as "no more than man-high yet terror seemed to go before it." Another description from BoLT states that the Balrog was "double his stature", 'his' in this context refers to Glorfindel. The latter quote would make a Balrog 13-14 feet tall. It was not so much the physical size of the Balrog as the fear he instilled and the shadow he carried along. Such creatures of 6-14 feet could get through that door, but their wings could not possibly have touched the sides of a "cavernous" hall when stretched out from wall to wall. Hence, the reference in the text must be figurative rather than literal.

Helen - -

I'll stick with Obloquy's answer here.

Note that the only real description we have of the creature is this:

it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape, maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.

Nothing about wings. Since flying things have a wingspan of three times their body length, wouldn't someone have clearly commented on those wings at some point in the Legedarium? They would have been so noticeable. Tolkien is very clear about winged and flying dragons. Why would he treat a Balrog differently?

Regarding time ill spent....don't feel bad. This is a subject I swore never to touch. I promise never to think about Balrogs after today.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

Regarding time ill spent....don't feel bad. This is a subject I swore never to touch. I promise never to think about Balrogs after today.

Originally Posted by mark 12_30

You know, thirty years later, and here I am. Balrogs? I feel like a lounge-lizard. I can't believe I got sucked into this.

Wings, I tell you. Wings.

Bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaa

[obloquy]

And I agree with you both, Underhill and HI, but my suggestion is not a ludicrous one and the possibility that there is another explanation should at least weaken what others have found to be firm proof.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

There have been a few people who have weighed in on the issue in the thread but who have failed officially to cast their vote. I wonder if they are pretending to achieve a resolution and then losing their nerve when it comes to actually nailing their colours to the masthead, as it were, in the form of a vote. (Fordim)

Well, Professor, I'm one of them. I adamantly believe that they don't fly (after Morgoth's return, at the very least), but I'm still torn between the shadow-wings, or real wings made useless by something. And since the question is "Do Balrogs have Wings", I will not chip in a vote yet until I'm quite certain in the issue. So there.

Re Mr. Underhill's thesis: It was a bias on part of Frodo and Gimli: they saw wings (which may be real or ephemeral), and they assumed flight. It's nature: I see cigarette, I think smoker.

[Lyta_Underhill]

The real issue here is the wingspan to body ratio. It's my understanding that every flying creature in existence has a ratio of roughly 3 to 1 in terms of wings and body. Let's make the width of the hall smaller just to be fair, since we do not have specific dimensions. If the hall was 75 feet across instead of 100, that would make the wings 75 feet outstretched, and the Balrog 25 feet high.

Since this has become rather a technical argument, can anyone tell me what the air-speed velocity of an unladen Balrog is? (That is, assuming he can attain the air...)

Cheers!
Lyta

P.S. There's no point in asking whether it is an African or European Balrog, as this is Middle Earth we're talking about!