LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 01 - Minas Tirith

[Boromir88]

I'm just going to pick out a few observations that I noticed when reading the chapter. It's mainly going to deal with Gandalf and Denethor.

"If you understand it, then be content," returned Denethor. "Pride would be folly that disdained help and cousel at need; but you deal out such gifts according to your own designs. Yet the Lord of Gondor is not to be made the tool of other men's purposes, however worthy. And to him there is no purpose higher in the world as it now stands than the good of Gondor; and the rule of Gondor, my lord, is mine and no other man's, unless the king should come again."

"Unless the King should come again?" said Gandalf. "Well, my lord Steward, it is your taks to keep some kingdom against that event, which few now look to see. In that task you shall have all the aid that you are pleased to ask for. But I will say this: the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor, nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I also am a steward? Did you not know?"

The full discussion on Gandalf's "stewardness" could be found here. But, notice the difference in the word "steward" that Tolkien uses. Gandalf draws a difference between Denethor's view of "Steward," and Gandalf's "steward."

Denethor's view is he is the absolute ruler of Gondor, he is subordinate to no man, no matter how "worthy" they are. What he says goes, whether Gandalf is a "steward," or no matter how wise/worthy of a man you are, Gondor's rule is "MINE!" Then the sort of throw away comment at the end to try to make up for his "It's mine!...oh...of course unless the King return." Denethor seems much more like the Frankish stewards who had almost the same power as their kings.

Gandalf's view of "steward" is much more different. More of a guardian role. He watches over, and cares for all worthy things. This could explain better why Radagast did not succeed in his "task." The Istari were sent to middle-earth to care for all the people's, all it's things, they were the "stewards" for Eru, and the Valar. Gandalf is the one who does care for all things that are good, and worthy, while Radagast seems to only fall under the care of nature, and birds.

Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf idd, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older. Yet by sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled....And then his musings broke off, and he saw that Denethor and Gandalf still looked each other in the eye, as if reading the other's mind. But it was Denethor who first withdrew his glance.

From first impressions of Denethor, Pippin thinks that Denethor looks more powerful, and "wizardly" then Gandalf. But, then Pippin realizes it can't be so, and is proven when the two are locked in "mental combat" and Denethor first withdraws his glare. Could this also be foreshadowing? Denethor is arguably has the greatest "mental power" of any mortal during this time (yes even Aragorn), however the key word is he is a mortal. Gandalf and Sauron are on a different level, and when it comes down to it, Denethor just can't contend with them, eventhough that he thinks he can. Is this foreshadowing in that Denethor tries to beat Gandalf, but he withdraws his glance first, then later when Denethor tries to strive with Sauron in the palantir, he just totally loses his mind?

[Encaitare]

Just a few thoughts while I skim the chapter...

I love how humble Pippin is here; and we even get to see a bit of "hobbit pride":

'Man?' cried Pippin, now thoroughly roused. 'Man! Indeed not! I am a hobbit and no more valiant than I am a man, save perhaps now and again by necessity. Do not let Gandalf deceive you!'

It's great when contrasted with his joking threat to Bergil:

'Though you may have taken me for a soft stranger-lad and easy prey, let me warn you: I am not, I am a halfling, hard, bold, and wicked!'

This is interesting:

'He [Denethor] loved him [Boromir] greatly: too much perhaps; and the more so because they were unlike.'

I suppose Denethor was one of those parents who sees his children as the ones who can live out the dreams he never fulfilled, who can do better than he did, except expects a bit too much.

The contrast between the citadel of Minas Tirith and the Great Hall at Meduseld is very markedly given. Pippin notes how there are "no hangings nor storied webs, nor any things of woven stuff or of wood" like there are in Meduseld. Everything here in Minas Tirith is completely carven in stone -- and this seems to be Denethor's mindset, too. He'll maintain the status quo because the course in which the world seems to be going is, to him, inevitable.

Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard that Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older. Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled. And he was older, far older.

I like this quote because it proves that appearances aren't everything. As Boromir88 mentioned above, Gandalf's purpose is not to come to Middle-earth in glory and flaunted power and majesty. It's to do the exact opposite: to keep a "low profile" of sorts while helping everyone out. Denethor does not seem to see that -- neither did Saruman.

It's been mentioned in many discussions before, but I just have to say that I adore the line: "For I also am a steward. Did you not know?" This is one of those scenes that I can see perfectly clearly in my mind, and it's a very clever line. It's not quite defiant, but there's a hint of a warning in it, as if Gandalf wants to say that he's going to be working to save Gondor whether Denethor likes it or not.

Pippin's description of Aragorn as "a man who went about with us" strikes me as oddly funny. Obviously he doesn't want to give away any information about Aragorn, but the way he describes him makes the man sound like he just traipses about after the Fellowship, and everyone just humors him even though he's not supposed to be there -- a Fellowship groupie, perhaps.

The closing of the chapter is very grim: "The Darkness has begun. There will be no dawn." Light seems to be one of the simplest human desires; all Sam wants in Mordor is light and water. Now even the hope brought by the sunshine is being taken away -- talk about psychological warfare!

I like seeing things through Pippin's eyes here; it's a sort of Everyman approach that we wouldn't get through, say, Gandalf's eyes, or even from a neutral-voiced narrator. Pippin's reactions seem to be close to how our own (meaning the average person's) would be.

That's all for now... I'm glad to be on RotK now. It's my favorite of the trilogy.

[Mithalwen]

I am going to reread this chapter before I comment deeply, but I would say that it is one of my favourites partly becasue of the information it provides - like the Counciul of Elrond it is a mine of information for those of us whose interest in Middle Earth go beyond what is strictly necessary for the development of the plot. And a consequence Minas Tirith is somewhere with a great deal of substance in my imagination. Strangely, I must admit it was the place I gave up when I first read the book. I had found book 4 alternately to dull or too scary and now not only was the quest seemingly doomed ( how thick was I not to realise the significance of the title of volume 3?!!?), but I was stuck with the members of the fellowship I liked least. I wanted more of Aragorn and Legolas (or failing that Merry) and I was stuck with grumpy Gandalf and Pippin). Faced with many, many more pages without sight of an elf, and lots of horrors, I stopped - but I was very young (10 I think..) so maybe my lack of perseverance can be forgiven.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

From first impressions of Denethor, Pippin thinks that Denethor looks more powerful, and "wizardly" then Gandalf. But, then Pippin realizes it can't be so, and is proven when the two are locked in "mental combat" and Denethor first withdraws his glare.

You know, this reference has had me wondering for a very long time: what does a stereotypical wizard look like?

I don't mean here, in our primary world, where Merlin and Gandalf himself have played major roles in developing our mental images of a typical wizard, but in middle-earth. In other words, what is Pippin's default image of wizard?

Denethor, as far as we know, does not have exceptionally long hair. If he has a beard at all, it is not of great length. He has no pointed hat. He wears the fine garments of a Steward- including chainmail.

Now I realise that it was the force of Denethor's powerful personality shining through that must have been the major influence on Pippin's reaction, but I still wonder: before the quest, how did Pippin mentally imagine a "great wizard". And one must remember that Gandalf was really only known for his fireworks, etc, in the Shire, and not for being a great wizard.

[Mithalwen]

I think it would be the aura of authority. The istari came in the bodily clothing of old men, and while Pippin had, on his travels, been in the presence of elf lords and young men of high rank, the older men (or seeming men) he had encountered were Gandalf, Theoden (revived), Saruman and Denethor. Now superficially Gandalf might have appeared the least imposing of them all. Denethor in his imposing surroundings and with the the ancient authority of his office would have been very imposing, and Denethor is very learned - it just occurs to me - and of course at this stage Pippin is unaware of Denethor's palantir which is an obvious parralel - that Pippin may be reminded of Saruman in his first impressions of Denethor. If I remember rightly the Steward has a rod as a sign of his office which would be a surrogate staff? I will have a closer look at that possibility when I reread...

[Lalwendë]

The whole chapter is seen through Pippin's eyes, and it is written very much as though we only see what Pippin sees; like him we are filled with wonder at this new place so his viewpoint is a perfect one to take, as we too are viewing it afresh. His age is an important factor here. Pippin is still not 'come of age' and is young, and his behaviour throughout the books demonstrates his youth. In this chapter we see Minas Tirith as viewed by a young person who is still learning about the world.

He has a lot of youthful pride:

Then Pippin looked the old man in the eye, for pride stirred strangely within him, still stung by the scorn and suspicion in that cold voice.

He is hurt and a little offended by the way Denethor speaks to him, and he has enough pride to be able to speak up against a nobleman he has only just met; this might not be expected of anyone who met Denethor, but instead of showing deference, Pippin is bold enough to speak up. He then has the temerity to offer his service, which to his credit is behaviour appreciated by Denethor. But for all his boldness, Pippin is still touchingly frightened and unsure; he relies upon Gandalf, having Beregond take him back to their quarters to see if Gandalf has returned. Pippin is uneasy without him about. He almost forgets Gandalf's one instruction to him, but once remembered, he takes great care to see to Shadowfax, even bringing him treats.

Pippin is still impulsive, as shown in his eagerness to speak to Denethor, despite Gandalf warning him what he ought not to say; he does not seem to believe in waiting to be spoken to. Likewise, when he is assigned to Beregond for the morning, his first question is to ask where he might get some food. Beregond himself informs Pippin of his status in the hierarchy of Minas Tirith, and he is well respected, but Pippin does not restrict his manner of speech. He wants to know as much as possible, and through his eager talk we too get to know all about the city.

His youth is underlined when he meets Bergil, who he befriends and seems to treat as a younger brother. With his new friend, Pippin the newcomer to the city is even able to show off a little:

Bergil proved a good comrade, the best company Pippin had had since he parted from Merry, and soon they were laughing and talking gaily as they went about the streets, heedless of the many glances that men gave them. Before long they found themselves in a throng going towards the Great Gate. There Pippin went up much in the esteem of Bergil, for when he spoke his name and the pass-word the guard saluted him and let him pass through; and what was more, he allowed him to take his companion with him.

'That is good!' said Bergil. 'We boys are no longer allowed to pass the Gate without an elder. Now we shall see better.'

What strikes me about Pippin's character in this chapter is his ability to get along with almost anybody. He pleases Denethor, he becomes a comrade of Beregond and makes friends with Bergil; he even pleasantly surprises Gandalf. Of course, this is essential to the narrative, as we need to meet all these people if we are to learn about Minas Tirith and its situation at that time. If Pippin had been sullen and dull then we would not get to meet these people in quite the same way, but by using his point of view, we also get to see his character more clearly, away from the shadow of the bigger personalities in the Fellowship.

They ate and drank; and they talked now of Gondor and its ways and customs, now of the Shire and the strange countries that Pippin had seen. And ever as they talked Beregond was more amazed, and looked with greater wonder at the hobbit, swinging his short legs as he sat on the seat, or standing tiptoe upon it to peer over the sill at the lands below.

'I will not hide from you, Master Peregrin,' said Beregond, 'that to us you look almost as one of our children, a lad of nine summers or so; and yet you have endured perils and seen marvels that few of our greybeards could boast of. I thought it was the whim of our Lord to take him a noble page, after the manner of the kings of old, they say. But I see that it is not so, and you must pardon my foolishness.'

'I do,' said Pippin. 'Though you are not far wrong. I am still little more than a boy in the reckoning of my own people, and it will be four years yet before I "come of age", as we say in the Shire.

This passage interested me. Here we have the youthful Hobbit talking to the seasoned soldier of Gondor and it is the latter who is less experienced. Beregond has been charged with showing Pippin the ways of Minas Tirith, but the hobbit ends up impressing the older man with his tales of Middle Earth.

From this I get a couple of things. Firstly, the men of Minas Tirith may well be trained soldiers, but they do not have a great awareness of the world they live in; their lives are insular, dedicated to the service of the great city, yet they hold the fate of this world in their hands. The passage also shows just how far Pippin has come from his innocence in The Shire; he is indeed growing up throughout his journey. It also serves to remind us that although the Ring may be in the hands of a Hobbit, these Hobbits, when viewed alongside Men, are just as strong and brave.

I'm sure if Gandalf had not taken Pippin with him then we would have had a very different view of Minas Tirith. Gandalf does not go about with the ordinary Men, he instead rushes off to a meeting, and the city is familiar to him. Through his eyes we would not have seen the place with as much of a sense of wonder, and we would not have met Beregond and Bergil and shared their feelings on the eve of battle.

[davem]

This is a long chapter & will probably take some unravelling. I have to say that, as I usually do, I read through the relevant section of HoMe first, & was struck by a few things, some of which seem relevant to our understanding of this chapter.

Now, before anyone accuses me of contradicting other statements I’ve made recently, about simply reading the story & entering into it without analysing it, pulling it apart, or seeking external explanations, I’ll say I’m only using these quotes because they seem to me to shed light on the story itself.

First of all, a note by Tolkien regarding Denethor’s attitude to Gondor, which seems to back up Boromir’s post:

In the margin of the page that bears this passage my father wrote:'For his wisdom did not consider Gandalf, whereas the counsels of Denethor concerned himself, or Gondor which in his thought was part of himself'. There is no indication where this was to be placed, but I think that it would follow 'Pippin perceived that Gandalf had greater power, and deeper wisdom- and a majesty that was veiled.'

Now, while this statement didn’t make it into the final text, I think it sums up Denethor’s attitude to his realm. He has come to identify himself with Gondor - indeed, he sees it as less than himself - it is merely a ‘part of himself’. I think this statement gives us an important key to the understanding of his character. Its not simply that he believes that if Gondor falls so will he (which is pretty certain) but that he believes that if he falls then so will Gondor. But ‘Gondor’ in his mind isn’t simply the land, it is also the people - including his own sons. He has become the ‘head’, the land & people his body. He rules the land as he rules himself. I can’t help feeling that this hubris is what brings about his despair in large part. He knows Sauron is winning the battle of wills fought via the Palantir, feels himself about to be overwhelmed, & he translates this as being the same thing as Sauron being about to overwhelm Gondor itself - which may or may not be true, but in Denethor’s mind there is no difference. If he himself is beaten, Gondor is beaten.

This also plays a part, I suspect, in his attitude to Aragorn, & the possibility if his claiming the Kingship. Denethor can only see this possibility as his own defeat & overthrow, & therefore as the defeat & overthrow of Gondor itself. It seems to me that Denethor’s sitting in the throneroom, armed & armoured, but refusing to go out, is not merely his attempt at self preservation; its as if he feels that while he himself is safe & secure then Gondor, by extension, will be safe & secure as well. He can even ‘spend his sons’ because, while he loves them, they are not Gondor.

Another thing I picked up from HoMe, which may or may not be applicable, was a statement from the ‘proto-Beregond’:

Many other pencilled alterations were made to this part of the mauscript, mostly to clarify the writing, which is here rather rough. Among these the following may be noted: as Beren and Pippin sat on the seat beside the battlement Beren said: 'We thought it was the whim our lord to take him a page boy', and this was changed by the addition of 'after the manner of the old kings that had dwarves in their service, if old tales be true.'

What’s interesting here is that Tolkien uses the idiosyncratic ‘dwarves’, not dwarfs, so he’s clearly referring to members of the dwarven race, not to ‘short’ humans. This is such an odd idea, because even though his concept of the dwarves evolved over the years, there was never any point in the writings where dwarves would have been concieved as serving as pages to humans. My own feeling on reading this was that Tolkien was making a double point here - first, that the lore of Gondor is in decline, & ignorance of other races is growing. The Gondorians are not simply ignorant of Hobbits, but of Dwarves as well. Second, it shows there is doubt about the veracity of ‘old tales’. Now, in this case, that doubt is correct, but later, in the case of Ioreth, we will see that it is not. In short, the Gondorians retain ‘old tales’, but have an ambiguous relationship to them. Some old tales are true, some are false, some are pure fantasy, but they don’t seem to be able to distinguish which is which anymore. In fact, for all their ‘learning’, they seem to be as ignorant of the world beyond their time & borders as the Rohirrim, & we can understand Faramir’s mourning for the past greatness of his people.

[Celuien]

A few quick thoughts before I read a bit more closely...

I'm struck by the use of contrasts in this chapter: the high white peaks of Minas Tirith against the shadowed walls of Mordor, Gandalf versus Denethor in the passages discussed above, Borormir versus Faramir from Beregond's words, and even Pippin versus Denethor. Both Pippin and Denethor show pride in this chapter, but while Denethor's pride leads to selfishness as he claims the rule of Gondor, Pippin is lead to give service. Maybe this is an insight into hobbit resistance to evil, since a feeling that leads to negative behavior in Denethor leads to something positive from Pippin.

There might be a hint of Osanwë suggested here. While there is clearly foreshadowing of the palantír's existence in Minas Tirith when Pippin thinks Denethor looked at him while speaking about the Stones, the interaction between Gandalf and Denethor brings Osanwë to mind:

He turned his dark eyes on Gandalf, and now Pippin saw a likeness between the two, and he felt the strain between them, almost as if he saw a line of smouldering fire, drawn from eye to eye, that might suddenly burst into flame.

and

...he saw that Denethor and Gandalf still looked each other in the eye, as if reading the other's mind.

This mind reading isn't palantír mediated if it was attempted, but the "as if" qualification brings up shades of the infamous Balrog debate.

[Firefoot]

Originally posted by Lalwendë:
Pippin is still impulsive, as shown in his eagerness to speak to Denethor, despite Gandalf warning him what he ought not to say; he does not seem to believe in waiting to be spoken to. Likewise, when he is assigned to Beregond for the morning, his first question is to ask where he might get some food. Beregond himself informs Pippin of his status in the hierarchy of Minas Tirith, and he is well respected, but Pippin does not restrict his manner of speech. He wants to know as much as possible, and through his eager talk we too get to know all about the city.

I'm not sure that impulsive is the right word to use. Certainly, Pippin is curious and outspoken, but he has come a long way from the "ridiculous young Took who was giving a comic account of Bilbo's farewell party" at the Prancing Pony. Pippin is now much more wary of his own speech and actions. He must be careful in talking to Denethor, and he is mindful of himself during his meal with the Third Company. He has matured a great deal, and I think his encounter with the Palantír helped a great deal with this. To me, your examples seem more like the normal actions of his personality: friendly, outspoken, almost too bold, but impulsive? I'm not so sure. The one action of his that I might call impulsive is his swearing of service, but he seems to have thought about this already, as he states to Ingold.

Originally posted by Formendacil:
Now I realise that it was the force of Denethor's powerful personality shining through that must have been the major influence on Pippin's reaction, but I still wonder: before the quest, how did Pippin mentally imagine a "great wizard". And one must remember that Gandalf was really only known for his fireworks, etc, in the Shire, and not for being a great wizard.

I think you already answered your own question, at least in part. As Pippin tells Beregond, he has known of Gandalf all his life. He knows that Gandalf is powerful, but it still hasn't really hit home. In some ways, to Pippin Gandalf is still the "friendly neighborhood wizard who makes great fireworks." Saruman fit his bill for a "great wizard," if a fallen one, and so now does Denethor. Part of this is, like Mithalwen said, an aura of authority. Another part, I think, is an aura of real power, and in Denethor's case nobility. Gandalf is almost too familiar to Pippin for him to associate these things with him.

I also agree very much with Enca's and Boromir's points on the stewardship line. It's one of my favorites.

"Do you think that I do not understand your purpose in questioning for an hour one who knows the least, while I sit by?"

"If you understand it, then be content," returned Denethor. "Pride would be folly taht disdained help and counsel at need; but you deal out such gifts according to your own designs. Yet the Lord of Gondor is not to be made the tool of other men's purposes, however worthy."

This part of the exchange has always seemed rather cryptic to me. It is rather interesting that Denethor would question Pippin so closely while Gandalf could tell him much more. I have always interpreted the reason to be mostly Denethor's pride, knowing that while he might get less information from Pippin, it would probably be more honest and uncensored, whereas Gandalf's would be very guarded. Thoughts?

[Lhunardawen]

That, Firefoot, and the fact that Denethor and Gandalf have always disagreed on a great many things. It's as if in exchange for the information Gandalf would have given, Denethor knows for sure that he would be used by Gandalf to fulfill his own goals. We have already seen that Gandalf and Denethor "love" Gondor in different ways, therefore they have different ways of protecting it. Denethor would rather spend an hour questioning Pippin who knows less, knowing that he can do nothing about what he says, instead of asking Gandalf for news and having to risk giving him authority to act upon them indirectly.

EDIT: Oh, and it would be easier for Denethor to read Pippin's mind, so he would get more than what Pippin actually says.

[Celuien]

Originally posted by Mithalwen:

Now superficially Gandalf might have appeared the least imposing of them all.

Originally posted by Lalwendë:

Here we have the youthful Hobbit talking to the seasoned soldier of Gondor and it is the latter who is less experienced. Beregond has been charged with showing Pippin the ways of Minas Tirith, but the hobbit ends up impressing the older man with his tales of Middle Earth.

It just occurred to me that this might be part of a recurring theme that things aren't always as they seem. When we first encounter Aragorn in Bree, he doesn't appear to be a likely candidate to become King. Hobbits are the last inhabitants of Middle Earth that would be expected to bring about the downfall of Sauron. "All that is gold does not glitter."