Gothmog: the poll

[Angry Hill Troll]

Whatever Gothmog was, he almost certainly wasn't going by his real name. The original Gothmog was Morgoth's Lord of Balrogs, who killed Fëanor and Fingon, before himself being killed by Ecthelion (a different one, not Boromir's grandfather ) in the Fall of Gondolin.

One question is, was Gothmog the "real" name of the Head Balrog? Tolkien doesn't seem to have decided what the origin of the name was. It may contain the same root as Morgoth, "the Black Enemy", which was actually the Sindarin translation of the name given to The Bad Guy Formerly Known As Melkor, by Fëanor. Was Gothmog the Balrog Lord's real name, or just the name by which the elves referred to him?

I can't see a human being given the name Gothmog at birth, although perhaps for an orc it's plausible. It seems strange, though, if Gothmog was really a Sindarin name of insult, why Sauron would pick that as a pseudonym for his lieutenant. It would make sense that Sauron would want to give one of his top lieutenants the same name as one of the top lieutenants of his former master (although Sauron's Gothmog wasn't nearly as fearsome), so maybe Gothmog was the Balrog Lord's real name.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

He wasn't an Orc, as Sauron wouldn't trust command of his main force to an Orc.

He couldn't be a Nazgûl, as Gothmog is an Sindarin name, and all of the Nazgûl are either Númenórean or Easterling Men, with names derived from their languages.

He is most possibly a Black Númenórean. We have precedent for a lieutenant to be a Man. Most of you remember the Mouth of Sauron, right? He was the Lieutenant of Barad-dûr.

I'm pretty sure he was a Black Númenórean.

To those interested, here is where the whole thing started.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

He couldn't be a Nazgûl, as Gothmog is an Sindarin name, and all of the Nazgûl are either Númenórean or Easterling Men, with names derived from their languages.

Does that hold water, though?

After all, Sindarin was one of those languages of Numenor...

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

But surely Sauron started recruiting Nazgûl potentials during the years of Anti-Elven Númenor. Those chaps would have Adûnaic names.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

But surely Sauron started recruiting Nazgûl potentials during the years of Anti-Elven Númenor. Those chaps would have Adûnaic names.

That early on? I dunno for sure...

And anyway, Sauron himself used Elven letters on the ONE RING, of all things.

I'm not sold that it was a Nazgul (although I do think it most likely), just playing-

~The Devil's Advocate -

Formendacil~

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Humm. This just reminds me how long it has been since I read The Lord of the Rings.

Looking at the characteristics that Orcs show throughout The Lord of the Rings, I think that it is unlikely that Sauron would place one in charge of his armies. Orcs are very little more than a mindless rabble from what we see. I do not think Sauron was that stupid.
I've not cast a vote yet as I think I'll need to think about it for a while. But so far, I don't think I'd be voting Orc. I'm also doubting Nazgul as I think all the other Nazgul are named at some point, aren’t they? (I can't honestly remember) But then again, The King of Angmar later became "The Witch King" so Sauron was a name changer.
However, if Sauron wanted to name a second in command after the king of Balrogs, then I suppose a Nazgul would be the obvious choice...

[EDIT] I've just voted Nazgul as it seemed the most likely.

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Nilp

He couldn't be a Nazgûl, as Gothmog is an Sindarin name, and all of the Nazgûl are either Númenórean or Easterling Men, with names derived from their languages.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Sindarin was one of those languages of Numenor...

Akallabeth:

So it cames to pass that, beside their own names, all the lords of the Numenoreans had also Eldarin names

"Beside their own names" implies that the Adunaic names were primarily used, with Sindarin names used in records or in communicating with the Eldar, that is, less frequently.

That said, I'm not yet decided, and haven't yet been through all the threads on the matter.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Nilp

But surely Sauron started recruiting Nazgûl potentials during the years of Anti-Elven Númenor. Those chaps would have Adûnaic names.

Originally Posted by North-Victor

That early on? I dunno for sure...

According to Appendix B, The One Ring was forged in about 1600 S.A. The Nazgul only appear at about 2251 S.A. though, so that should be the latest date of the Nazgul recruitment. About 1800 S.A. The Shadow falls on Numenor.

So yes, it would appear Sauron had started to choose his Nazgul potentials early on, but they would probably still have Adunaic names. So I don't think Gothmog could be a Nazgul.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

And anyway, Sauron himself used Elven letters on the ONE RING, of all things.

What other letters were there to use?

Actually, what if Gothmog was simply the name given by the West to the lieutenant? In that case, he would have a different name in the black speech, and so all this language debate would be pointless...

Sigh. I think my brain might explode. Good job, Fordim.

Originally Posted by Hookbill

I'm also doubting Nazgul as I think all the other Nazgul are named at some point, aren’t they?

Nope.

Originally Posted by Hookbill

But then again, The King of Angmar later became "The Witch King" so Sauron was a name changer.

I'm quite sure these names were given to the W-K by Men, not Sauron.

I prefer the Balrog wings debate...