Belling the Ring

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by alatar

Well, first, the One Ring is not Sauron. You can't have two things be the same thing, if that makes any sense. Sauron, in making the Ring, did not clone himself, and even if he were able to do so (NOT!), the clone would be his creation and not the original.

I didn't suggest that the Ring was Sauron, rather that it was an extension of his will and power. It was a separate and distinct part of him. I don't find that too incredible in a fantasy world.

I suppose that it depends upon whether you regard the Ring as a "character" in the story. If you see it purely as an object in which Sauron imbued part of his power then no, it is not a part of him. But I see it differently, as you seem to do with your comparison of it to a pet. The Ring was a "character" in the sense that it could adapt itself and exert influence independently.

But it could not have a life of its own. Sauron could create it, but could not imbue it with a life of its own, just as Aule could not imbue his Dwarves with life. Only Eru could do that. So, if you regard the Ring as a "living character", as I do, it's life, will, spirit, fea, call it what you will, had to come from somewhere. Either he trapped an evil spirit within it, which would give it a measure of independent will, or he imbued it with part of his own life, or fea. I do not regard the Ring as having an independent will. Although it could act independently, it was acting according to the (disjointed) will of its master. I can only conclude, therefore, that he imbued it with part of his own will.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Anguirel

The intellectually lazy could lay down truism-laden laws on these domestic animals without having to think.

Actually, I was speaking from experience. They can of course make very good companions, as long as their carer recognises the reality of the relationship.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

... and no one belongs in Mordor out of hand, human, cat, dog, iguana, ideally even Orc.

Try telling that to all the poor teachers, parents and minor offenders who have been assigned there.

[alatar]

I think that the Saucepan Man has stated my thoughts more concisely than my attempts have proved. Thanks.

And I did not wish this thread to become the flashpoint of the dog-lovers/cat-lovers civil war. Again, I used the word cat as (1) I personally observed certain behavior of this common animal and (2) we all know to which kind of animal I'm referring. Sigh.

Anyway, what's always pushed me away from the 'One Ring is Sauron's' camp is that is seems to me that the Ring would have been just as happy with Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel and Aragorn - okay, so maybe not Elrond .

I think that somewhere it states that Sauron, knowing more about the Ring than any other, fears that someone, possibly one of the above mentioned, will claim the Ring, overthrow him and set up a new shop. To me this does not sound like an object that is completely a part of and loyal to Sauron. Would one be able to utterly destroy Sauron yet keep the Ring? Don't know, but it seems that Sauron fears that another worthy Ring claimer will not do the Dark Lord's bidding nor make life comfortable for the same.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by alatar

... Would one be able to utterly destroy Sauron yet keep the Ring?

Isildur, ring any bells?

[edit] He he, 'Ring' any bells [/edit]

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

Isildur, ring any bells?

Okay, so I'm as blind as a ...oh, better not say, as I wouldn't want to inadvertently offend yet another animal . Didn't see that. Anyway, what I mean is that not vanquish Sauron then remove his Ring (like in the case that you've noted), but use the Ring to vanquish Sauron, such as if Galadriel were to take possession of the One Ring and actively use it to destroy Sauron.

It would just be sooo much more helpful if y'all could see what I'm thinking instead of relying on what I write...Thanks for the help HtG.

[Lyta_Underhill]

I have absolutely nothing to add in the cats vs. dogs debate, however, if I might draw a couple of literary device parallels, albeit both more contemporary references (don't read if you don't wish to be spoiled for "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince" or "His Dark Materials", please don't read them!):


1. Parallel (possibly conscious, certainly subconscious) with Horcruxes from Harry Potter, the fixing of part of one's "soul" within a thing or person by use of magic. The destruction of a Horcrux results in the loss of that part of the soul fixed inside it. The One Ring might have been a predecessor/inspirational model for this, as part of Sauron is fixed inside the Ring, and to destroy it is to destroy him.

2. Parallel with the fantastic application of quantum entanglement from His Dark Materials. This theory, which I haven't really looked into has something to do with imprinting materials with certain identical "quantum states," which cause them to be intertwined and thus, one particle feels the effect of a force inflicted upon the other particle, even if they are separated by a great distance. The way it is used in "His Dark Materials" reeks of witchcraft, really, and who would have thought the fields of Modern Physics and Magic could be brought so close together! But in a way, this is the relationship of Sauron to his Ring. He feels it, if only faintly at a distance, but since it can only be destroyed in the Fires of Orodruin, we get the sense that it has to be in proximity to him. If there had been a dragon extant, perhaps the Ring could have been consumed in that way and some sort of "quantum entanglement" proven, but of course, we all know the dragon would just sit on it, hoarding it like all its other treasure!

I guess I'm not trying to prove anything with this post, especially not whether the Ring is canine or feline in nature, just that this "entanglement" idea is pervasive and thus in my mind, a feature of its applicability.

Cheers!
Lyta

[Formendacil]

Interestingly enough, I am a cat person. I like cats, I find them intelligent company, and someday I would like to acquire one for myself (currently, certain parents make that unfeasible). And I am not a dog person. I can appreciate them as a part of other people's lives and loves, but to me they hold no attraction.

And yet, I agree with Alatar's camp in that there is more Cat-applicable material in the Ring than there is Dog-applicable material. Interesting...

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

We live with two cats and two dogs, so I shan't enter the cat vs dog debate other than to say that as far as I am concerned its cats AND dogs.

The Ring is much more like a Platypus: something that just should not and could not really be, and yet, strangely, is...

[Mithalwen]

Isn't Sam the ultimate faithful hound? Even when he has wife and child he still wants to follow Frodo over sea......

I wonder if there will be a correlation between the cat/dog preference of downers and other major issues such as balrog wings.

Obviously I am a cat person although I don't have one in residence at the moment (despite the kind but rather impractical offer from a fellow downer to rectify this) ...my lifestyle means I will have to stick to my gorgeous comets Xue-er and Xinran - oh their sweet smily fishy faces each morning ......

Cats are not selfish. One of our cats would stay close by you if you were ill or alone in the house. Others would keep you company on walks and always welcome you home. When they bring you their kill, they are treating you as their kitten and "feeding you" - they can't understand while we don't appreciate it ( especially when they are trying to give you food for a journey and leave assorted rodents and birds in a half packed suitcase). They act selflessly as hotwaterbottles.

Cats are beautiful, mysterious, of ancient nobility, inspiration to poets, hardy and long (nine) lived (and the houseless fea of a cat will long haunt its home - you see a flicker of tail disappearing around doors) and slightly above the ways of humans - though they graciously agree at times to spend time with us mere mortals and give us the benefit of their wisdom...

The ring is not a cat .... cats are elves!!!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

Isildur, ring any bells?

Sauron wasn't utterly destroyed. He came back.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Sauron wasn't utterly destroyed. He came back.

Yes, thus proving that it couldn't happen! That was the point I was trying to make, but I have, after reading some of The Letters, begun doubting my theories... oh dear...