That good night: gift or punishment?

[Bergil]

I've always had a theory on what the gift of men is. Death is only part of it, I'm sure I read something in the Silmarillion about "desire to know what;s beond the world", the gift is an unquenchable thirst, and then quenching of it. I've always thought that if no-one could die, on-one could get excited, everyone would be complacent. We see , perhaps, some complacency in the later elves.

[littlemanpoet]

If by complacency you mean something close to despair, for the Elves by the end of the Third Age had come to realize that their long life was trammeled with sorrows and the death of all that they loved in Middle Earth. ... and of course the "long defeat".

[Raynor]

Mark who grants death at the exact moment of the Fall. It is a Voice (of Eru)!

Well, he doesn't actually grant death, only a shortening of life:

Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.

When reading the Athrabeth, did you not get the impression that Andreth was reporting a belief that was not necessarily true?

I agree; moreover, it is pretty complicated to integrate the debate into the greater tale: for three ages Melkor is a prisoner in the halls of Mandos, and after he meets Ungoliant, he remains in dark form ever after (cf. Of the darkening of Valinor, Silmarillion) - how then could he appear to Men in a "great and beautiful" form (cf the debate)? Moreover:

[Finrod] remains, nonetheless, in the opinion that the condition of Men before the disaster (or as we might say, of unfallen Man) cannot have been the same as that of the Elves. That is, their 'immortality' cannot have been the longevity within Arda of the Elves; otherwise they would have been simply Elves, and their separate introduction later into the Drama by Eru would have no function. He thinks that the notion of Men that, unchanged, they would not have died (in the sense of leaving Arda) is due to human misrepresentation of their own tradition, and possibly to envious comparison of themselves to the Elves. For one thing, he does not think this fits, as we might say, 'the observable peculiarities of human psychology', as compared with Elvish feelings towards the visible world.
...
For Melkor could seduce individual minds and wills, but he could not make this heritable, or alter (contrary to the will and design of Eru) the relation of a whole people to Time and Arda.

There is Earendil, but he is fated to ride in his ship for ever - and he is half-Elven.

I know of two prophecies concerning Earendil (one in The names of Finwe's descendants, HoME XII, where Ulmo tells Tuor about his son becoming a great mariner and one in Of the severance of marriage, HoME X, where Mandos foretells the coming of Earendil to Aman) - yet nowhere is it stated that Earendil has this fate. Moreover, if, when answering Manwe, he chose to be man (instead of following his wife's choice) his rides among the stars would be rather short lived .

If he did want all men to be swiftly drawn to him, would he not just bring them to him immediately? Rather, he put them in Middle-Earth for a reason, and them fearing death is what keeps them there until whenever they are supposed to leave.

I disagree (from Of the severance of marriage, HoME X):

For Eru is Lord of All, and moveth all the devices of his creatures, even the malice of the Marrer, in his final purposes, but he doth not of his prime motion impose grief upon them.

I the light of this, I couldn't see Eru as imposing fear on his Children in order to achieve His end.

[HerenIstarion]

for three ages Melkor is a prisoner in the halls of Mandos, and after he meets Ungoliant, he remains in dark form ever after (cf. Of the darkening of Valinor, Silmarillion) - how then could he appear to Men in a "great and beautiful

It is assumed that when Men appeared in Beleriand, it was many generations past their awakening. Therefore, Fall of Man happened before chaining of Melko.

[Raynor]

Therefore, Fall of Man happened before chaining of Melko.

I disagree:

Originally Posted by Of the Sun and Moon and the hiding of Valinor, Silmarillion

These things the Valar did [the making of the sun and moon, after the escape of Melkor], recalling in their twilight the darkness of the lands of Arda; and they resolved now to illumine Middle-earth and with light to hinder the deeds of Melkor. For they remembered the Avari that remained by the waters of their awakening, and they did not utterly forsake the Noldor in exile; and Manwe knew also that the hour of the coming of Men was drawn nigh
...
for the Sun was set as a sign for the awakening of Men and the waning of the Elves, but the Moon cherishes their memory.

Originally Posted by Of Men, Silmarillion

At the first rising of the Sun the Younger Children of Iluvatar awoke in the land of Hildorien

[Aiwendil]

It is assumed that when Men appeared in Beleriand, it was many generations past their awakening. Therefore, Fall of Man happened before chaining of Melko.

I disagree

This point depends upon the changing cosmology of the Legendarium.

In the earlier 'flat world' cosmology, Men awoke at the first rising of the Sun, which was after the chaining of Melkor (and indeed, after his release).

In the Myths Transformed 'round world' cosmology, the Sun and Moon existed from the beginning of the world. The awakening of Men was thus not tied to their creation, and it was moved back to before Melkor's chaining.

[Raynor]

There are some serious obstacles in accepting the version of the Sun and Moon as given in Myths Transformed. The opening salvo is: "At that point (in reconsideration of the early cosmogonic parts) I was inclined to adhere to the Flat Earth and the astronomically absurd business of the making of the Sun and Moon."

As Tolkien himself recounts, a minor loss would that of dramatic impact (no first incarnates walking in a starlit world, no unfolding of the elven banners at the first rising of the moon). More serious that this is the fact that the cosmological myth of the Silmarillion comes out as a "creative error". Moreover, in Christopher's words"

"As he stated it, this may seem to be an argument of the most doubtful nature, raising indeed the question, why is the myth of the Two Trees [as being created from the sun, not the other way around] (which so far as record goes he never showed any intention to abandon) more acceptable than that of the creation of the Sun and the Moon from the last fruit and flower of the Trees as they died? Or indeed, if this is true, how can it be acceptable that the Evening Star is the Silmaril cut by Beren from Morgoth's crown?"

The problem that seems to be at hand is that Tolkien considered the Sil. to be too "primitive" in nature; primitive, but not _absurd_. The here discarded myth cannot be excised as a "gratuitous element", since it is closely related to the two trees giving light to Valinor, while ME was in darkness - and it is in darkness that the elves had to wake, under the light of the stars (not of the sun).

Moreover, Tolkien concludes that Men should awake during the Great March - now this doesn't leave _that_ much weight to the stature of the elves as firstborn, does it?

Before the making of Utumno (and the waking of the elves) Melkor ravishes Arien - and it is thus burned and "his brightness darkened" - how then could he appear in fair form to the Men he would later corrupt? [Another problematic idea presented in M.T. is that Fionwe was son of Manwe, which is pretty much against my understaing of his Legendarium.]

To conclude with Christopher's words concerning this particular theory of Sun and Moon: "It seems to me that he was devising – from within it – a fearful weapon against his own creation".