That good night: gift or punishment?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

Or, in fact, had Tolkien not conceived of the theological consequences of this giftedness until, as davem suggests on Fordims thread, he was questioned about the canonicity of his ideas with his faith?

He did waver on this question when challenged - don't have the Letters to hand - but I seem to remember he said something along the lines of 'a divine punishment can also be seen as a gift if it is seen as being intended to reprove a beloved child' - something like that.

I think he always found the fact of to be something horrible, but tried to convince himself that if death existed in a universe created by a loving God there must be a 'loving' motivation behind it. This seems to have been yet another 'unorthodox' (but unquestioned by Tolkien himself till challenged on it) belief which he incorporated into his Legendarium.

It seems to me that he just wrote 'what really happened' & that stood until he was challenged on its 'orthodoxy' - only then would he attempt to justify it (mostly to himself).

Clearly, though, as he grew older he became more & more uncomortable with the differences between his Creation & the teachings of his faith, & so set out to 'iron out' the conflicts he percieved.

He never quite lets go of the idea of death as a divine Gift, but he certainly struggles to justify the idea (cf Athrabeth).

[Bergil]

I've always had a theory on what the gift of men is. Death is only part of it, I'm sure I read something in the Silmarillion about "desire to know what;s beond the world", the gift is an unquenchable thirst, and then quenching of it. I've always thought that if no-one could die, on-one could get excited, everyone would be complacent. We see , perhaps, some complacency in the later elves.

[littlemanpoet]

If by complacency you mean something close to despair, for the Elves by the end of the Third Age had come to realize that their long life was trammeled with sorrows and the death of all that they loved in Middle Earth. ... and of course the "long defeat".

[Raynor]

Mark who grants death at the exact moment of the Fall. It is a Voice (of Eru)!

Well, he doesn't actually grant death, only a shortening of life:

Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.

When reading the Athrabeth, did you not get the impression that Andreth was reporting a belief that was not necessarily true?

I agree; moreover, it is pretty complicated to integrate the debate into the greater tale: for three ages Melkor is a prisoner in the halls of Mandos, and after he meets Ungoliant, he remains in dark form ever after (cf. Of the darkening of Valinor, Silmarillion) - how then could he appear to Men in a "great and beautiful" form (cf the debate)? Moreover:

[Finrod] remains, nonetheless, in the opinion that the condition of Men before the disaster (or as we might say, of unfallen Man) cannot have been the same as that of the Elves. That is, their 'immortality' cannot have been the longevity within Arda of the Elves; otherwise they would have been simply Elves, and their separate introduction later into the Drama by Eru would have no function. He thinks that the notion of Men that, unchanged, they would not have died (in the sense of leaving Arda) is due to human misrepresentation of their own tradition, and possibly to envious comparison of themselves to the Elves. For one thing, he does not think this fits, as we might say, 'the observable peculiarities of human psychology', as compared with Elvish feelings towards the visible world.
...
For Melkor could seduce individual minds and wills, but he could not make this heritable, or alter (contrary to the will and design of Eru) the relation of a whole people to Time and Arda.

There is Earendil, but he is fated to ride in his ship for ever - and he is half-Elven.

I know of two prophecies concerning Earendil (one in The names of Finwe's descendants, HoME XII, where Ulmo tells Tuor about his son becoming a great mariner and one in Of the severance of marriage, HoME X, where Mandos foretells the coming of Earendil to Aman) - yet nowhere is it stated that Earendil has this fate. Moreover, if, when answering Manwe, he chose to be man (instead of following his wife's choice) his rides among the stars would be rather short lived .

If he did want all men to be swiftly drawn to him, would he not just bring them to him immediately? Rather, he put them in Middle-Earth for a reason, and them fearing death is what keeps them there until whenever they are supposed to leave.

I disagree (from Of the severance of marriage, HoME X):

For Eru is Lord of All, and moveth all the devices of his creatures, even the malice of the Marrer, in his final purposes, but he doth not of his prime motion impose grief upon them.

I the light of this, I couldn't see Eru as imposing fear on his Children in order to achieve His end.

[HerenIstarion]

for three ages Melkor is a prisoner in the halls of Mandos, and after he meets Ungoliant, he remains in dark form ever after (cf. Of the darkening of Valinor, Silmarillion) - how then could he appear to Men in a "great and beautiful

It is assumed that when Men appeared in Beleriand, it was many generations past their awakening. Therefore, Fall of Man happened before chaining of Melko.

[Raynor]

Therefore, Fall of Man happened before chaining of Melko.

I disagree:

Originally Posted by Of the Sun and Moon and the hiding of Valinor, Silmarillion

These things the Valar did [the making of the sun and moon, after the escape of Melkor], recalling in their twilight the darkness of the lands of Arda; and they resolved now to illumine Middle-earth and with light to hinder the deeds of Melkor. For they remembered the Avari that remained by the waters of their awakening, and they did not utterly forsake the Noldor in exile; and Manwe knew also that the hour of the coming of Men was drawn nigh
...
for the Sun was set as a sign for the awakening of Men and the waning of the Elves, but the Moon cherishes their memory.

Originally Posted by Of Men, Silmarillion

At the first rising of the Sun the Younger Children of Iluvatar awoke in the land of Hildorien

[Aiwendil]

It is assumed that when Men appeared in Beleriand, it was many generations past their awakening. Therefore, Fall of Man happened before chaining of Melko.

I disagree

This point depends upon the changing cosmology of the Legendarium.

In the earlier 'flat world' cosmology, Men awoke at the first rising of the Sun, which was after the chaining of Melkor (and indeed, after his release).

In the Myths Transformed 'round world' cosmology, the Sun and Moon existed from the beginning of the world. The awakening of Men was thus not tied to their creation, and it was moved back to before Melkor's chaining.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by davem

I think he always found the fact of to be something horrible, but tried to convince himself that if death existed in a universe created by a loving God there must be a 'loving' motivation behind it. This seems to have been yet another 'unorthodox' (but unquestioned by Tolkien himself till challenged on it) belief which he incorporated into his Legendarium.

It seems to me that he just wrote 'what really happened' & that stood until he was challenged on its 'orthodoxy' - only then would he attempt to justify it (mostly to himself).

Been thinking about this issue again. Did Tolkien's - and all of ours - feelings about death get stamped into his brain in childhood? Is that when we learn that Death is the Enemy to be feared? What would it be like if he, or we, learned from early on that although death is something to be avoided, it is part of the natural process, unavoidable, and like the animals, to be accepted?

Is there a culture where this happens?

Or are we all tainted by the lies of Morgoth? Did Tolkien, hearing about Hell and damnation, think that if it remained a possible location for his soul for eternity, regardless of his piety, consider this, whether consciously or subconsciously when writing about how men learned to fear the Gift? Do Christians fear death (if they do) for this reason?

This got sparked by reading this article where towards the end it states

Originally Posted by Dale McGowan

My feeling about death is pretty straightforward: I am opposed to it. Yet there it is. And once my kids have fallen in love with reality, part of my job as a parent is to help them grasp and accept the less lovable parts along with the easier bits.

Fortunately, death is no big deal.

Let me be clear. From this side of the turnstile, death appears to be an enormous deal. But I've nursed at the teats of Epicurus and Montaigne long enough to know that the dead themselves surely aren't all that impressed with it. While I exist, Death does not. When Death exists, I will not. Why should I fear something I will never experience? That doesn't entirely feed the bulldog, but it's a Milk Bone. My life is bounded by two eternities of nonexistence. Why should I fear the nonexistence after my life if I didn't fear the one before it? Another Milk Bone. And since our reckless family conversations often intersect with death, I've had several occasions to serve up some version of each of those to all three of my kids. There's real consolation there.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

Been thinking about this issue again. Did Tolkien's - and all of ours - feelings about death get stamped into his brain in childhood? Is that when we learn that Death is the Enemy to be feared? What would it be like if he, or we, learned from early on that although death is something to be avoided, it is part of the natural process, unavoidable, and like the animals, to be accepted?

Is there a culture where this happens?

Or are we all tainted by the lies of Morgoth? Did Tolkien, hearing about Hell and damnation, think that if it remained a possible location for his soul for eternity, regardless of his piety, consider this, whether consciously or subconsciously when writing about how men learned to fear the Gift? Do Christians fear death (if they do) for this reason?

My brain must be foggy from all the smog and humidity of the heat wave, 'cause I'm not quite following this. Are you asking of we are all tainted by Original Sin or are you suggesting that the idea of Hell and damnation is one of Morgoth's lies?

My theology is a bit fuzzy, but I think in Tolkien's time even the Just did time in at least Limbo if not Purgatory before getting through the Pearly Gates, so death wasn't a one-stop destination. But the Fall definitely did close off the Pearly Gates until Christ provided the key. I'm not sure what happens to all those people between Adam and Eve and 70 AD, if they got retroactive access or if they had to wait.

Maybe this is why Tolkien omitted a Fall in his mythology?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

My brain must be foggy from all the smog and humidity of the heat wave, 'cause I'm not quite following this.

alatar asks Manwë, Lord of Air, Heating and Cooling (See Ulmo with plumbing problems) to send Bêthberry some cool conditioned air.

Are you asking of we are all tainted by Original Sin or are you suggesting that the idea of Hell and damnation is one of Morgoth's lies?

Must have been one of those days when I got too much sleep, as today even I'm not sure what I was thinking. Anyway, think that my question is: Did Tolkien's inclusion of the Lie of Morgoth (Gift is bad; join Morgoth and stick around like the elves) come from his early childhood and tales of hell and damnation? If he were raised in a culture (should it exist) where death was not celebrated but accepted as a natural end - you die and that's it; no yelling and screaming or pushing boulders up hills for eternity - would his writings about the rejection of the Gift been different? If there were no concept of Hell in his mind, would the entire Gift and Ban been written differently, if at all?

My theology is a bit fuzzy, but I think in Tolkien's time even the Just did time in at least Limbo if not Purgatory before getting through the Pearly Gates, so death wasn't a one-stop destination.

Just like in Arda, with the Hall of Mandos.

But the Fall definitely did close off the Pearly Gates until Christ provided the key. I'm not sure what happens to all those people between Adam and Eve and 70 AD, if they got retroactive access or if they had to wait.

As I understand it, they waited in a place called 'Abraham's Bosom,' or the 'Limbo of the Fathers' until the death and resurrection of Christ (Luke 16:19-31)

Maybe this is why Tolkien omitted a Fall in his mythology?

That would be another thread.