How can hope and despair be akin? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 01-26-2006, 05:23 AM

From the Athrabeth:

Quote:

'What is hope?' she (Andreth) said. 'An expectation of good, which though uncertain has some foundation in what is known? Then we have none.'
'That is one thing that Men call "hope",' said Finrod. 'Amdir we call it, "looking up". But there is another which is founded deeper. Estel we call it, that is "trust". It is not defeated by the ways of the world, for it does not come from experience, but from our nature and first being. If we are indeed the Eruhin, the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any Enemy, not even by ourselves. This is the last foundation of Estel, which we keep even when we contemplate the End: of all His designs the issue must be for His Children's joy. Amdir you have not, you say. Does no Estel at all abide?'

Its perhaps a problem with the 'translation' of Aragorn's words - both Estel & Amdir can be translated as 'hope', but while Amdir & despair can be 'one' in certain circumstances, Estel & despair cannot...

Estelyn Telcontar · 01-26-2006, 05:45 AM

I disagree, davem. I think it is precisely Estel that can be the only kind of hope present in the face of despair!

davem · 01-26-2006, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esty

I disagree, davem. I think it is precisely Estel that can be the only kind of hope present in the face of despair!

Maybe I wasn't clear - when I said:

Quote:

while Amdir & despair can be 'one' in certain circumstances, Estel & despair cannot..

I meant that while Amdir ('looking up'/optimism) can become akin with despair, ie linked in the mind, indistinguishable, cancel each other out (or whatever Aragorn meant), Estel ('trust'/faith in Eru) will always remain a seperate thing, & cannot, by its nature, become akin with despair. Despair may drive out Estel, but it will never become 'akin', let alone the same thing.

Cailín · 01-26-2006, 07:20 AM

Hmm.

Though hope is essentially seen as a word with a positive meaning, I don’t think it’s always so. You often hear people say: “All we can do now is hope” and that is often paired with a sigh or a depressed look. Hoping is not really ‘fun’. It’s what you do when all else has failed. In that sense I think hoping is closer to despair than anything else in the world: because when hope fails, there is only despair left, but while a person refrains from merely hoping and actually goes out and do something possibly productive, despair is still a long way off.

I think it’s quite likely Aragorn was just trying to sound deep and meaningful, but otherwise I’d explain it along the same lines as Farael seems to be doing. However, as I more or less said above, I personally believe hope and despair are always akin and so closely related it may not be a paradox at all.

01-26-2006, 05:45 AM	#2
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	I disagree, davem. I think it is precisely Estel that can be the only kind of hope present in the face of despair! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

01-26-2006, 07:20 AM	#4
Cailín Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Lurking in the shadows. Posts: 711	Hmm. Though hope is essentially seen as a word with a positive meaning, I don’t think it’s always so. You often hear people say: “All we can do now is hope” and that is often paired with a sigh or a depressed look. Hoping is not really ‘fun’. It’s what you do when all else has failed. In that sense I think hoping is closer to despair than anything else in the world: because when hope fails, there is only despair left, but while a person refrains from merely hoping and actually goes out and do something possibly productive, despair is still a long way off. I think it’s quite likely Aragorn was just trying to sound deep and meaningful, but otherwise I’d explain it along the same lines as Farael seems to be doing. However, as I more or less said above, I personally believe hope and despair are always akin and so closely related it may not be a paradox at all.