Lord of the Rings - English Icon

[Lalwendë]

At the risk of being wormy, if LOTR has a broader reach than simply England, does this mean that the Englishness of the text is simply being picked up on by world cultures which themselves have absorbed English influences?

Does an English Icon need to be purely parochial? Or can it also be an Icon that is appreciated by a global audience? Other Icons include Alice In Wonderland and the Miniskirt, which do have global audiences. They are not limited to England, nor were the influences on their development be purely English, but they are nevertheless English Icons which have 'gone global', as LOTR has.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Regardless of its international appeal, (even though its hard to ignore), I'd say that it still remains an English icon. Well, tea isn't just drunk in England, now is it? My older brother described Tolkien's writing style (especially in The Hobbit) as like an old Grandfather telling small children a tale at bed time. Personally, I think of this as a very English image (at least, with Tolkien with his pipe and tweed ).

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

At the risk of being wormy, if LOTR has a broader reach than simply England, does this mean that the Englishness of the text is simply being picked up on by world cultures which themselves have absorbed English influences?

Does an English Icon need to be purely parochial? Or can it also be an Icon that is appreciated by a global audience? Other Icons include Alice In Wonderland and the Miniskirt, which do have global audiences. They are not limited to England, nor were the influences on their development be purely English, but they are nevertheless English Icons which have 'gone global', as LOTR has.

Got new for you Lal: to the rest of the world, Englishness is exotic. A wild idea, I know, but everyone in the world thinks of themselves and where they are as normal and everywhere else as exotic. We tend to disparage the normal (who wants to be normal) and value the exotic (oooooo, that's so wonderfully exotic). So to the rest of the world, the Englishness of LotR is something that we react to not with familiarity (those "absorbed English influences") but with the thrill of the unfamiliar.

For North American readers there's Elves, Dwarves, Dragons and Wizards alongside waistcoats, people who say "fiddlesticks", castles, and a monarchy -- we don't have any of those things over here!

But I daresay that this exotic-Englishness appeals to English readers as well since the England that Tolkien preserved (quite Elvishly, I might add...) in his stories is one that no longer really exists either. So I would argue that every reader of the story exists at least one remove from the English-aura we find there...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Does an English Icon need to be purely parochial? Or can it also be an Icon that is appreciated by a global audience?

Those living elsewhere in the world may eat a Full English Breakfast, drink a Pint of Warm Bitter or drive a Mini (though hopefully not all at the same time), and greatly enjoy the experience, but English icons they remain. So it is with The Lord of the Rings.

Definately an English icon in my view. I voted for it.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Fordim

But I daresay that this exotic-Englishness appeals to English readers as well since the England that Tolkien preserved (quite Elvishly, I might add...) in his stories is one that no longer really exists either. So I would argue that every reader of the story exists at least one remove from the English-aura we find there...

I remember posting some time back that I found it difficult to understand how non English readers related so strongly to LotR, because I personally found so essentially English & getting quite a negative response from some fans in other countries.

It was almost as if they felt that I was attempting to exclude them, say they didn't have a 'right' to Tolkien's work. Needless to say that wasn't the point I was making at all. It just seemed to me that the work was so English that it must seem a bit 'alien' to anyone who had not been born & brought up here.

Clearly that's not the case. Something Flieger said struck me, that the work, because its so essentially English actually becomes 'universal'. I think what she meant was that because Tolkien didn't attempt to produce some kind of 'mid-Atlantic' or pan-European work that tried to appeal to everybody, his work had a kind inner cultural 'unity' (no I'm not sure what I mean by that exactly - I'm struggling here) that makes it seem real. Its not inclusive, politically correct, struggling not to offend anyone so that it will appeal to a mass market (& inevitably appealing to no-one in particular as a result). Its a work with universal appeal precisely because its so English. Its the same with War & Peace, which speaks to all cultures precisely because it is so Russian. These kinds of works reveal our common humanity because they are so particularly of the culture which the author comes from. A work which attempts to be all things to all readers tends to be a confused mess, 'multi-cultural', 'politically correct' & with no real identity or sense of place.

Originally Posted by Bb

LotR is broader than simply England--all those nods to the northern mythologies lifts it above national iconography.

I suppose one could argue the same for the plays of Shakespeare, yet whose work is more typically English, because of, rather than in spite of, its multi-national/multi-cultural settings? The Legendarium came from an English mind, heart & hand & that is why it appeals to so many readers across so many different cultures. Only an English writer of the 20th century could have produced a work like LotR.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

You know, I think that it maybe an icon to the English who recognize the strong ties to their country, but to the rest of us, it is a darn good read, even if we haven't a clue that there is a country/culture that vaguely resembles M-E (or perhaps the Shire). Thus having said that, it would be hard for me to say it is an English icon, because it doesn't feel particularly English to me since I don't know what Englishness feels like. And neither does it feel particularly exotic, though on reflection, that statement is a strange one, and yet there you have it. It has just enough attachment to the language and values of the recent past make it familiar, despite the sometimes strange landscapes or inhabitants.

The long shot of it is that if you mention LotR, England doesn't immediately come to mind, whereas if you say 'cricket' or 'Trafalger Square' it does.

[Firefoot]

I have to second what Hilde says. If I look for ties, I can see them (mostly in the Hobbit), but if I think "LotR," I definitely don't think "England." Say Stonehenge or tea or cricket or Buckingham palace - those are what I would call English icons.

While LotR started out as a mythology for England, I think it has become almost too inter-cultural to be just an English icon. I'm not trying to downsize whatever influence it had on Tolkien, but for those of us who aren't experienced in Englishness, LotR does not speak to that. I can imagine little brooks and rolling hills and fields without picturing England; we have those here across the ocean, you know. They might be a bit different, and so my mental pictures of those places might be different than someone who lives in England, but understanding England is not essential to understanding LotR. On the other hand, LotR is certainly more English than, say, American, and if any country could claim iconology, it would be England. But in my opinion, an English icon should say "this is England" to more people than just English people, and I'm not sure that LotR does this.

Of course, if it came down between the miniskirt and LotR, hands down which would be the English icon... I had no idea miniskirts had anything to do with England.

until you get to problematic figures like Boromir who is far more American -- a cowboy, really, with all that lone gun bravado stuff; rugged individualism.

*Imagines Boromir in chaps and a cowboy hat...* Definitely never quite thought of it that way before.

[Aiwendil]

The degree to which LotR is associated with England will naturally vary with the reader. I first read LotR (or rather, had it read to me) when I was quite young - probably about six; at that time, naturally, it bore no connection whatsoever to England in my mind. Now it seems quintessentially English to me.

I suppose it has, in part, to do with how familiar one is with England and English society. I've never been to England, but I'm something of an Anglophile. I think that to someone who is familiar with English novels and television, hobbits (in their society, their manner of speech, their attitude, their homeland, and so on) simply ooze Englishness. But when I was very young, this fact was quite lost on me, simply because I had no experience of Englishness. As a matter of fact, thinking about it, it seems likely that what initially appealed to me about other English things was their similarity to Tolkien.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

The Legendarium came from an English mind, heart & hand & that is why it appeals to so many readers across so many different cultures. Only an English writer of the 20th century could have produced a work like LotR.

Where to turn in a time like this? Why, of course to Gilbert and Sullivan.

He is the very model of an anti-modern mythic pastoral
with information historical, linquistical, and even saceral
He knows the kings of Numenor and quotes the stories mythical
From Sirion to Bagshot Hoo, in scenery quite spectactacle.

He’s very well acquainted with matters fantastical
He understands relations both the plain and the profundical
About theorems minstrel he’s teeming with a lot of views
With many dour and dreadful things about eucatastric news.

He’s very good at eternal and even short term fellness
He knows the entish names of creatures ficticious.
In short, in matters historical, linguistical and saceral
He is the very model of an anti-modern mythic pastoral.

etc. etc. ~~

[Thinlómien]

Yes, LotR is an English icon. The fact that I don't always necessarily think about England when LotR is mentioned is not enough to undo it. I don't always think about England when I drink tea, but I'd stil recognise it as an English icon.

LotR, like tea, is so internationally widespread that they don't belong only to England. However, it can still be an English icon. England is the place of origin, but it is not the only thing that defines LotR. We can't view LotR as a purely English thing, but we can't deny its place as an English icon either.

Tolkien's intention was to write a mythology for England. I think he succeeded. Various articles that claim LotR as "England's favourite book" (most people's favourite book or the book they consider the best). I think this strongly speaks for that Tolkien created a mythology and the English people accepted it.

That, if something, makes LotR an English icon.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Brilliant verse, Bethberry!

I think I should propose that Tolkien himself be considered the icon, like Shakespeare or Gillbert and Sullivan.

But perhaps the definition will help me out here.

i·con


1. a. An image; a representation.

b. A representation or picture of a sacred or sanctified Christian personage,
traditionally used and venerated in the Eastern Church.

2. An important and enduring symbol:

3. One who is the object of great attention and devotion; an idol.

4. A picture on a screen that represents a specific file, directory, window, option,
or program.

Ah well! I can see that I am stuck on definition 2 and I think we are aiming more at 1a.

Thinlómien, I am assuming that you are refering to afternoon tea?

I hope that I'm not coming across as wanting to deny LotR as an English icon, just having a brain that is stuck in definition 2 of the word icon, I don't see it as an immediately recognizable symbol though it may well be symbolic of the culture from which it sprang.