LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 03 - The Ring goes South

[davem]

As its a red star Borgil could be a possibility. More on M-e astronomy here

[Texadan]

I could not find how the stars were made though I'm fairly sure I've read it before. But the Sun and Moon originated from a fruit of Laurelin and a bloom of Telperion. Is there a place for planets as we know them in Tolkien's cosmology?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

As far as I know, only stars are mentioned in Middle-earth, though some of them may correspond with planets. Eärendil is the best example that occurs to me - he and his ship were set in the sky as the Morning Star. The morning/evening star of our world is Venus, a planet, as we know nowadays. But in the far past, people could not explain why there were some stars that came and went, since they had no concept of planets.

There may be references in HoME of which I am not aware. Does anyone else know anything about planets on Middle-earth?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Este,

I agree.

The one "star" that I've heard mentioned as possibly being a planet is Elemmirë. This was one of the lights that Varda used to welcome the Elves to Arda upon awakening. The Encyclopedia of Arda says this may actually be the planet Mercury. However, they don't list a source for their statement other than to refer generically to Tolkien's notes. I can't find any reference to this in the Letters and I have temporarily misplaced my index to HoMe so can't check it there.

(If you could see the state of my house, you'd know why I am having difficulty locating this index! )

[Aiwendil]

There's a note in HoMe X where Tolkien seems to equate several of the Elvish star-names with planets:

Karnil = Mars
Lumbar = Saturn
Alkarinque = Jupiter
Elemmire = Mercury
Nenar = Uranus
Luinil = Neptune

But Christopher surmises that these cannot have been meant seriously, since Nenar and Luinil, which are supposed to be "great lights in the region of Ilmen" would then refer to the very faint Uranus and Neptune - the latter of which is not even visible without the aid of a telescope. His conclusion is that Karnil and Alkarinque were indeed meant to be Mars and Jupiter but that the other equations represent nothing more than a whimsical extension of the idea by his father.

It's interesting that there's no indication that the planets were distinguished from the fixed stars - with the conspicuous exception of Earendil (Venus), whose wandering was given a substantial aetiology.

[Texadan]

I may be dense but, since nothing in the world containing Middle Earth corresponds to anything in our world, geographically or historically, why should any of the astronomical bodies bear any resemblance to anything in our solar system, galaxy or universe? I wouldn't even have considered looking for, or expecting to find, Mars, Venus or Polaris any more than I'd expect to find New York or the Matterhorn.

[Aiwendil]

nothing in the world containing Middle Earth corresponds to anything in our world, geographically or historically

I don't think that this is trivially true. It seems to me that Middle-earth is our world in a fictional past.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Texadan

I may be dense but, since nothing in the world containing Middle Earth corresponds to anything in our world, geographically or historically, why should any of the astronomical bodies bear any resemblance to anything in our solar system, galaxy or universe? I wouldn't even have considered looking for, or expecting to find, Mars, Venus or Polaris any more than I'd expect to find New York or the Matterhorn.

Tolkien mentions the sickle being the plough..

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

But Christopher surmises that these cannot have been meant seriously, since Nenar and Luinil, which are supposed to be "great lights in the region of Ilmen" would then refer to the very faint Uranus and Neptune - the latter of which is not even visible without the aid of a telescope.

But Aiwendil you are not taking into account that these stars would all have been identified by Elvish eyes. There are numerous examples of Elves being able to see things that humans could only see with the aid of a telescope -- given the greater powers of perception attributed to Elves by Tolkien, it would not make sense for them NOT to be able to see Uranus and Neptune, which become visible through even the most modest telescopes.

With vision as good as I think they possess (i.e. equivalent to a small refractor telescope), they would easily be able to pick out the differences between stars and planets and maybe even distinguish some features of planetary bodies. Galileo, with his telescope (the equivalent power of a decent pair of modern binoculars) could make out Uranus, Neptune, the rings of Saturn and the four largest moons of Jupiter!

[alatar]

Don't have my FotR book, and so this is strictly from memory:

Why does Gandalf arrive last when the Fellowship makes to depart Rivendell? He remains closeted with Elrond to the last minute. Where they making higher level secret plans? Did these two Ring bearers know something of the Road ahead? With the two months that Gandalf spent at Rivendell with Elrond, what was so important that they had to meet up to the moment of departure?

Did Elrond see Gandalf's fall, and so they made plans in case of that eventuality?

Surely this is not a case of the 'first being last, that being the place of honor.'

[Texadan]

Originally Posted by davem

As its a red star Borgil could be a possibility. More on M-e astronomy here

My apologies. I did not read far enough or closely enough in the article you linked to before my last post. The creation of the stars are given there.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

'The fellowship ... left on December 25th, which then had no sgniificance, since the Yule, or its equivalent, was then the last day of the year & the first of the next year. But December 25th (setting out) & March 25th (accomplishment of the quest) were intentionally chosen by me'

Well, kinda sorta. The setting out on Dec 25th was a happy accident of the calendar, driven by narrative requirements counting backwards (for a long time Gandalf fell on Friday January 13th, although that became untenable), and then the conversion to the Shire-Reckoning (which happened well after the narrative had been completed; in the writing Tolkien used the Gregorian calendar).

However, it's clear from his time-schemes that Tolkien built Aragorn's march to the Morannon and Frodo's across Gorgoroth to culminate on March 25th, and that's a date he took pains to preserve even when he had to shift the Pelennor back by a day and rewrite ALL of the many plot-threads leading up to that momentous day (Pippin at MT, Faramir, Merry and the Rohirrim, the Grey Company, Frodo at Cirith Ungol).