LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 03 - The Ring goes South

[Texadan]

I may be dense but, since nothing in the world containing Middle Earth corresponds to anything in our world, geographically or historically, why should any of the astronomical bodies bear any resemblance to anything in our solar system, galaxy or universe? I wouldn't even have considered looking for, or expecting to find, Mars, Venus or Polaris any more than I'd expect to find New York or the Matterhorn.

[Aiwendil]

nothing in the world containing Middle Earth corresponds to anything in our world, geographically or historically

I don't think that this is trivially true. It seems to me that Middle-earth is our world in a fictional past.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I don't think that this is trivially true. It seems to me that Middle-earth is our world in a fictional past.

Aiwendil's observation is asserted by Tolkien himself when he rejects the descriptor 'nordic' in his vetting of Charlotte and Denis Plimer's article based on an interview with him for the Daily Telegraph. It is Letter #294. Tolkien states that Rivendell is at about the same latitude as Oxford and Minas Tirith at that of Florence (P. 376 in my paperback edition).

I also have another recollection that Tolkien actually makes a statement in another letter that Middle earth is our world back in time, but time precludes my finding it.

Here at the Downs we have developed our own readerly conceit of the absolute separation between the Primary World and Tolkien's Sub-created World, but like all conceits, that is just an extended metaphor masking a theory available for discussion, disproving, modification, etc. There is also a joy in exploring the consistencies between those two worlds even if they need not be considered in any one particular reading of Tolkien's works.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Texadan

I may be dense but, since nothing in the world containing Middle Earth corresponds to anything in our world, geographically or historically, why should any of the astronomical bodies bear any resemblance to anything in our solar system, galaxy or universe? I wouldn't even have considered looking for, or expecting to find, Mars, Venus or Polaris any more than I'd expect to find New York or the Matterhorn.

Tolkien mentions the sickle being the plough..

[Formendacil]

Compared to the dramatic crescendo of Howard Shore's music rising in the movie as Elrond declares "you shall be the Fellowship of the Ring" at the end of the council, the book's selection of the Fellowship is a lot more perfuntory: Elrond chooses who will go and mostly does it offscreen--and largely separate from the council.

In a way,this is the opposite of the movies where the choice to go is dramatic, but their number means nothing--here, nine is explicitly Elrond's goal.

The departure by night from Rivendell is one of those iconic mental-pictures-uncolured-by-the-movies, including the blowing of Boromir's horn and Gimli trading sayings with Elrond,

[Inziladun]

This is one of my favorite chapters.

Even before Frodo leaves Rivendell, there's a seeming portent he notes (due to his near-wraith-turn?).

But low in the South one star shone red. Every night, as the Moon waned again, it shone brighter and brighter. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens, burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley.

"in the South", the very direction he must go! Nice.

After the Fellowship sets out, one gets to watch the various personalities we've already come to know interact with the unknowns. The reader may have an idea what to expect from Gimli (though he has his surprises later), and maybe Legolas, but Boromir would be a blank slate.

Even after multiple readings, I like the sense imparted of the cold, cheerless journey between Rivendell and Moria, with the growing menace of avian spies.

[Boromir88]

The Ring Goes South keeps on following a similar pattern as Book I, Three is Company.

Now that the previous chapters in Book I and II had a lot of exposition where the Ring was discussed, and where Frodo had to go with it. Both Chapter 3s the decision of what to do with the Ring gets underway. And there's more similarities than I originally noticed on previous readings.

-Frodo's not going alone. Both Chapter 2s ended with Sam "eavesdropping" and joining Frodo.

-Both Chapter 3s the rest of the Fellowship is formed, but mostly "off screen," so to say. Merry and Pippin are secretly "conspirators," and it's not revealed in the story yet, but they're determined to leave with Frodo. The 9 walkers are determined, secretly (in a way) and revealed only after the fact by Elrond.

-There is a delay in the Frodo leaving. Three is Company, Frodo is waiting for Gandalf, who had gone off and later revealed he was trying to gather news on the Ringwraiths. Now, the Fellowship is waiting until Elrond's scouts find out what happened to the Ringwraiths after the flood.

-Merry and Pippin's role is most interesting. Frodo was set to leave the Shire with just him and Sam. Unbeknownst to Frodo, Merry and Pippin were conspiring to join him. As Elrond is off screen determining the members of the Fellowship, we peak in this time to Merry and Pippin "conspiring" to join.

Which got me thinking about the back-and-forth between Elrond and Gandalf about what's to become of Merry and Pippin. Elrond seems set to keep the two back and return to the Shire to do what they can in warning and preparing the Shire. First time readers won't know what Elrond's worried about, but his determination makes it feel like he foresees trouble in The Shire. Trouble that might be prevented by keeping Merry and Pippin back.

This is a display of the wisdom of Gandalf and Elrond, and again how the very wise cannot see all ends. To Pippin's shock Gandalf sticks up for them by reminding Elrond:

"Neither does Frodo," said Gandalf. unexpectedly supporting Pippin. "Nor do any of us see clearly. It is true that if these hobbits understood the danger, they would not dare to go. But they would still wish to go, or wish that they dared, and be shamed and unhappy. I think, Elrond, that in this matter it would be well to trust rather to their friendship than to great wisdom. Even if you chose for us an Elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road to the Fire, by the power that is in him."

In the previous Chapter, Elrond is marveled by Frodo's accepting the Ring, and says he only knows 2 hobbits, Frodo and Bilbo, both have surprised him. Gandalf knows more about hobbits and is able to persuade Elrond to his POV. Even if Elrond foresees trouble coming to the Shire, and Merry and Pippin might be able to prevent it. He cannot see all ends, and perhaps keeping them out of the Fellowship does more harm to the quest in a way Elrond cannot foresee. (And maybe Merry and Pippin aren't able to keep out the evil that has already come into the Shire), Maybe, if Glorfindel is in the Fellowship, it is him that decides to stand against the Balrog and therefor Gandalf's important death and return does not happen? So many, scenarios and what ifs Elrond got his way, instead of Gandalf. But good thing Elrond trusted Gandalf's words that friendship will be more important in picking the Fellowship, because "power" would not make Frodo's job any easier.

My last point on the chapter is we see, if nothing else, Boromir's purpose is to supply the muscle. Merry and Pippin were critical in navigating Frodo through the dangers in the Shire and Old Forest. But here they are not strong enough to get through Caradhras. And literally they probably feel a lot like Bilbo, early on in his adventure, they're being carried around like a sack by Aragorn and Boromir. I don't think it's mentioned yet, but Merry and Pippin are probably feeling like maybe they should have listened to Elrond (but don't be hasty my young hobbits! )

[Galadriel55]

Reading your post, Boromir, made me realize very strongly again that the main role of the two hobbits was to be Frodo's friends: a you could say a complicated form of emotional support. We cannot judge Gandalf's decision by the what-ifs, only by history as it happened. Could he have anticipated hobbit ambassadors to Rohan, Gondor, Fangorn, other lands? Possibly. But more immediately and explicitly he mentions friendship. Frodo is already surrounded by everything that is strictly required: strength, skill, wisdom, and representatives of every race present at the Council. The only thing he lacks is "normal people", people whom he can trust absolutely (ahem, Boromir), talk normally and unrestrainedly with (Gandalf, Aragorn), be close with (Legolas, Gimli), and who would be a piece of home on his way and a reminder of his purpose. Sam fits just about every point except arguably the last. Though he talks about home all the time, he is himself too much an atypical hobbit and too closely tied with Frodo. Pippin and Merry are less close with Frodo, and as such represent to him a view from the side of the silly ignorant hobbits that he so wants to save. At the same time, their presence is a comfort (though maybe a nuisance to the rest of the Fellowship). People to aid the unseen will battle part of the quest.