The Lord of the Bible?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I totally agree with the above. It appears to me that comparing the Lord of the Rings to, say the Bible, allows great minds to excercise their creative thinking & in the process open a latreal opportunity to learn new perspectives. But there will always be some who prefer to stay with the mainstream Tolkienology, believing that it is the truest & safest approach, but not as imaginative & it may even close new doors for further thought & discussion. This thread was all about opening new doors for those who want to open them, rather than those who prefer to guard the old ones & keep them locked.

I don't see it as 'learning new perspectives' so much as inventing them. No, I must correct myself there - not 'new' perspectives, but old, ancient, decrepit ones. This whole 'Finding God in the Lord of the Rings' approach has been done to death, resurrected, done to death again, resurrected again, etc, etc,etc. It is not new in any way at all. I probably have hallf a dozen books which claim to show the 'Christian' backstory of LotR (& do it very badly in most cases). Its not even interesting anymore.

Ok, let's try another tack.

Gandalf & Elrond were directly & deliberately inspired by Christ. As was Frodo & Aragorn. The Balrog was meant to be a depiction of Satan (unless Grima or Saruman was), Galadriel of the Virgin Mary, Eowyn of St Ursula, Merry of St Francis, Lobelia of St Catherine of Sienna & the fox a subtle allegory of Nebuchadnezzar.

What, exactly, has that to do with the price of fish?

Or maybe its just me. I'm sure Mansun & the other 'great minds' of this forum should be as free as possible to 'excercise their creative thinking & in the process open a latreal opportunity to learn new perspectives.'

I see that I have now joined the ranks of those who 'prefer to stay with the mainstream Tolkienology, believing that it is the truest & safest approach, but not as imaginative & it may even close new doors for further thought & discussion. This thread was all about opening new doors for those who want to open them, rather than those who prefer to guard the old ones & keep them locked.'

Ah, the radicalism of youth, when we all felt the fire in our bellies! But now we are old, & only seek to imprison the young within the cells we have created for them. We are too old & fuddled to keep up with them. They will reveal the TRUTH to us, for it is their destiny.....

(Anybody else read Logan's Run........?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by davem

I don't see it as 'learning new perspectives' so much as inventing them.

Do you have a point? We are not discussing a mysterious and magical text that was brought down from on high within a burst of white light, whose origins are unknown, and that promises to save the world. It wasn't sent over by aliens, it didn't suddenly appear to a hobo in a shack emblazoned with words too hallowed to repeat. We're talking about books. Written by this guy. Tolkien was a great writer, sure, but he was human and his books are merely books, no matter how nicely they are written. Tolkien was happy, got angry, had moments of sadness, of hyperactivity, of hunger, of jealousy; he reproduced with his wife, went to the bathroom. Forgive the blasphemy, but I assume he also burped at least once in his life.

Tolkien was a master wordsmith, but he was still just a guy talking. Making things up. Inventing a world.

If we want to invent perspective with which to view this world, created by this guy, to see if we can learn something, why do you care?

They will reveal the TRUTH to us, for it is their destiny.....

So long as you're aware, m'boy.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Do you have a point? We are not discussing a mysterious and magical text that was brought down from on high within a burst of white light, whose origins are unknown, and that promises to save the world. It wasn't sent over by aliens, it didn't suddenly appear to a hobo in a shack emblazoned with words too hallowed to repeat. We're talking about books. Written by this guy. Tolkien was a great writer, sure, but he was human and his books are merely books, no matter how nicely they are written. Tolkien was happy, got angry, had moments of sadness, of hyperactivity, of hunger, of jealousy; he reproduced with his wife, went to the bathroom. Forgive the blasphemy, but I assume he also burped at least once in his life.

Tolkien was a master wordsmith, but he was still just a guy talking. Making things up. Inventing a world.

If we want to invent perspective with which to view this world, created by this guy, to see if we can learn something, why do you care?

Well, I don't exactly see what this 'revelation' is that you assume yourselves to be on the verge of.

Could it be 'Tolkien was a Christian, who had read the Bible, & its possible to find certain similarities between the language & stories of the Bible & his own sub creation!!!!!!!'?

There - I said it for you. Tolkien was quite probably influenced by (among God knows how many other things) the Bible. You can find (&/or impose) Biblical symbolism & allegories on the Legendarium (& for all I know there may well be a hidden code in there too which reveals when the Day of Judgement will take place).

I'm sure there are even some deliberate nods towards his faith - the dates of the setting out of the Fellowship from Rivendell & of the Fall of Barad Dur & all that.

But that's not new, its not original, & God knows why anyone outside of a few evangelicals on a mission to get us all back to church or some seriously anally retentive fans would actually care what went into the 'leaf mould of the mind' out of which grew Tolkien's particular Tree.

We are all influenced by what we read, experience & believe. You seem deserate to prove that this was allso the case with Tolkien - but I don't think anyone is arguing with that.

One word of warning though. As I said earlier, I've read quite a few of these pieces on how LotR is a deeply Christian work - just glancing at my bookshelf now I can see 'Tolkien in Perspective', 'Tolkien's Oridinary Virtues', Finding God in the Lord of the Rings', Secret Fire, Tolkien Man & Myth & JRR Tolkien's Sanctifying Myth among others, along with a nice thick folder of essays printed off from the Web many of which are by Christians & purport to show Tolkien's work was deeply Christian. Their motivation seems twofold - the first can be summed up as 'See, you like LotR, LotR is a Christian book, so, why not come to church this Sunday?' & the second as 'Wow!!! I've just discovered similarities between characters & events in LotR & the Bible! I must be a genius!'. What they all have in common is that they are completely unconvincing, badly written statements of the glaringly obvious or simply embarrassing: 'Aragorn had a beard & long hair & looked like Jesus...'.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by davem

Well, I don't exactly see what this 'revelation' is that you assume yourselves to be on the verge of.

I can't speak for anybody else, but I don't seek a revelation at all. I'm just in it for the fun of it all. Eru help us, don't you ever just play?

[Lalwendë]

Well after thinking of a lengthy explanation I've abandoned it. There was no need for it.

I think that the objections of some readers to the 'explorations' of others ultimately boil down to resistance towards attaching any kind of 'agenda' to LotR.

[Lalaith]

Their motivation seems twofold

Third possible motivation: there are some Christian churches today which limit the reading and knowledge of their members, and seem actively to discourage them from reading or enjoying anything not directly Bible-related. Fantasy literature in particular is regarded with great suspicion, or even banned.
I think that these attempts to "prove" the biblical and Christian provenance of LotR is a way for some people to read and enjoy the work without feeling sinful.

[Lalaith]

Clarification of the above: it was not intended as an attack on Christianity in general, but a comment on certain strands within it....strands I have been made aware of primarily from encountering young people here on the Downs who have had their reading heavily restricted by their churches, schools and pastors.

[The Only Real Estel]

Well, I hate to bring this up but, there could possibly be a (*gasp*) fourth "possible motivation." (*cue the evil conspirator music* )

Perhaps, and I know this might be a stretch here, but perhaps some of these books brought up by davem & others that were written by Christians on some of the parallels in Tolkien's world to Christianity (which can be drawn without trying too hard, whether Tolkien intended them or not) are books written towards (although not expressly for) Christians who enjoy Tolkien and would enjoy the parallels as well?

But then there would be no hidden agendas or other exciting things to talk about it would be...just a book with parallels someone saw in it.

At any rate I think Lal says it quite well:

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Well after thinking of a lengthy explanation I've abandoned it. There was no need for it.

I think that the objections of some readers to the 'explorations' of others ultimately boil down to resistance towards attaching any kind of 'agenda' to LotR.

Fortunately I don't think that any 'Downers are trying to attach any agenda to it...lets hope it stays that way.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Third possible motivation: there are some Christian churches today which limit the reading and knowledge of their members, and seem actively to discourage them from reading or enjoying anything not directly Bible-related. Fantasy literature in particular is regarded with great suspicion, or even banned.
I think that these attempts to "prove" the biblical and Christian provenance of LotR is a way for some people to read and enjoy the work without feeling sinful.

So we're back to the whole issue of 'meaning' then. LotR has to be shown not only to have a meaning, but a specifically Christian (probably a specifically fundamentalist Evangelical) one. If it cannot be shown to be a Christian allegory, or at least 'orthodox' it must be 'evil', & banned?

As to the point that those Christians are just enjoying the parallels between LotR & the Bible. I don't have any problem with that. I do, however, find that those 'paralllels' are invariably forced & don't really stand up to any scrutiny. It always seems to be a case of 'This episode/character in LotR is like/makes me think of..' (at which point they go off on some tangent & start talking about Isaiah or the Virgin Mary).

Now, I accept that in some of the Letters Tolkien himself had a tendency to do that very thing but perhaps he ought to have had more sense - some of the 'interpretations' he comes up with are so tenuous or so odd that they make your head spin: for example, when he claims that the events at the Sammath Naur are a playing out of the lines in the Lord's Prayer ('Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us') he is definitely pushing it. To try to force that kind of analogy, to try to turn one of the most powerful moments in literature into material for scriptural exegesis (or more likely a very embarrassing sermon) is to treat the story (& the reader) with contempt.

This kind of simple 'one-to-one' analogy never, it seems to me, rises above the confused or embarrassing.

[littlemanpoet]

Or a fifth .... (related to the fourth) .....

Recognition.

....of something dynamic and powerful at a level most books don't reach. The story of LotR strikes a chord that rings with the very tembre of creation itself as it is. Thus, it's a recognition

of Reality.

.... and Christians but not only Christians are drawn to this story like no other in the entire century during which it was written. Those who believe as did its author find themselves saying, "I know this! I recognize it! It's in harmony with the very warp and weft of what I know! I want to celebrate it by sharing it with my friends."

Originally Posted by davem

...for example, when he claims that the events at the Sammath Naur are a playing out of the lines in the Lord's Prayer ('Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us') he is definitely pushing it. To try to force that kind of analogy, to try to turn one of the most powerful moments in literature into material for scriptural exegesis (or more likely a very embarrassing sermon) is to treat the story (& the reader) with contempt.

davem, you should be ashamed for doing the very thing you are complaining about. If Tolkien made such a statement, it would behoove us to understand that those words from the Lord's Prayer apparently meant that much to him. To so criticize his most dearly held beliefs is to treat him with contempt. Do please attempt to see this from Tolkien's point of view.