A Community Statement

[Hookbill the Goomba]

This discussion I had decided to stay out of... but I'd just like a question cleared up...

It was clear to me that Davem meant no offence with his posts. If they were anti-christian I was never insulted and I've head much- much - worse in my time. I accept that that doesn't apply to everyone and it's clear that some people were insulted - I would go into some long rant about 'forgive and forget', 'turn the other cheek' and so forth, but I think it's been said.

My question is this: if he was willing to come back, under what circumstances would the mods consider it? Even if this meant starting some new account or something. Lets just say, theoretically, that davem apologised for insulting some of our members (even if he still stands by some of his points and principals) or his 'tone' or whatever, would the mods consider forgiving him and letting him back into our community? It seems to me that a lot of people have been hurt by this and I don't want to see the Down fall apart or be broken up by it. I'm only looking for a solution to make everyone happy.

It still stands to reason that Mr Dave may not wish to come back, that aside, I'd just like to know there is a possibility that one of our most esteemed Downers, not to mention one of our liaisons with the Tolkien Society, could come back...

- On a side note, davem needs to come back for his role as chief of police in The Downer -

[drigel]

The posts here are appreciated. It seems that everyones position, and how they saw things as it went to the breaking down point is clear (although it hasn't changed anyones opinions - nor should, really). Here are some gut feelings with some points that have been brought up.

TECHNICAL:

It has been suggested that the LotB thread should have been closed. I was always reluctant to see that happen, though, because there were people who wished to discuss the topic raised.

As long as they all agreed to not only the subject, but the validity? I'm not saying that Davem was in the right, but there have been threads that were closed before. Never seen a call for the Bill of Rights afterwards, though. Besides which, because there are BD rules, there really isnt any real freedom of speech on this site (and rightly so).

due to the actions of one member who was not willing for that discussion to take place would hardly have been consistent with principles of fairness and freedom of speech.

There is a time and a place for everything. Forever silencing the best asset the Books have is one option (neither fair nor free speech IMO). However, this would have been the time for admin to say OK everyone SHUT UP, and MOVE ON. This ends the conversation that was going nowhere. It had already diverged into "Yes it is - and here is the evidence" and "No it isnt - you are being silly". Anything after those points is moot.

Myth 1: The Downs “management” is intolerant of views, beliefs and opinions which dissent from their own.

I agree. The only run in Ive had with BW was a political post on a political thread that I am sure I would have had the perma ban on other sites. btw - that was a thread that got closed.

Myth 3: The forum policies have changed or are being applied differently.

Maybe not, but tone has. Not from Admin, but the users.

There has, in recent times, been a downturn in serious discussion and an upturn in activity in the Mirth threads, with, for example, Werewolf and other games taking up much of many members’ time.

Not me. I would say look for other reasons. If you would have asked me, I would have loved to give you an honest reply. Which leads me to:

TONE
I completely agree with Boro's post.

Which some may think 'well it's only one member,' but think of how many other members saw this and were effected by it?

Or who here are like me, who only are here because of people like Davem? Im not saying that it's all about a Davem fan club or cult. It wasnt about him at all personally (I dont really know the guy - seems OK to me though). It was about his posts, and what that represented, about him, and (more importantly) this website. In the Books, here was a place for those of us who dont desire to play games, trivia, RPG etc.

The attitude has changed, the feeling has changed, I think we have this clique-like softy-softy attitude developing in the downs, and I don't like it.

Ive experienced it as well.

davem needed a lesson in Tone if this was the problem. So do a lot of people. The people with a tendency towards being patronising who are still very much thriving here, for instance. His 'Tone' was only 'off' because it was used in: Hey! A Religious Thread! And his tone was used in response to someone with an equally sneering Tone.

The point being that the Tone I was picking was not only in the posts, but in other remarks, and were never really up front and confrontable (very BD "rules" savvy). A backhanded way that IMO told me that I definately was not a regular member, and because I dont write in a flowery or english lit. paper style, that my point isnt valid, even if what I said in 2 sentances counters very neatly what they said in 8 paragraphs. A Tone sirs, that I have put up with for a while, because the utility I recieved from participating far outweighed the nuisance. Every site has it's own culture, and this place isnt any different. I can fit in I think. But when something like this happens, all the little things that one puts up with, suddenly becomes unbearable in the scale.

my initial decision had nothing to do with this matter, although it has perhaps hastened my withdrawal.

same here

Hope this explains something to somebody. There is a time to manage, micromanage, and there is a time for Social Engineering. I only post because I care.

[Folwren]

I did not intend to post again here, but having read all the posts to this point, I can not help but ask this one questions:

What is everyone trying to accomplish here?

Which leads to many other things...

If your purpose is to gain a proper explanation - haven't you gotten your explanation? The mods have done their best to tell you what happened! I don't think they can say anything more than they have. You don't think these reasons are good reasons so...

Do you want the mods to apologize? Say so and have done.

Is it to get them to let davem back? Here's a question - would he even return? I've heard from a few people that he wouldn't. To beg for the lifting of the ban only to be disappointed by the person in question will only cause more damage.

Do you want something else? Tell the mods what it is! You're all saying 'The feeling and tone of the Downs is changing.' But how is it changing? Less freedom? Less good, in-depth discussions? Figure out the answer and then try to come up with a solution. There are some things that can not be left up to the mods to accomplish or to fix. They can't make the discussions in the Book Forum better. That's left up for the posters.

Also, I highly, highly doubt that the mods mis-interpreted davem's style of writing, his humor, sarcasm, and all the rest to the point of banishment. I just can't see the misunderstanding being carried so far. He might well be a Yorkshire man, and Yorkshire man may be satirical and sarcastic, but we've got mods from different places in the world who are used to and accustomed to such behavior, through personal experience and reading. It just doesn’t seem likely.

My ideas of a solution:

Say, outright and clearly, what you want done to satisfy your discomfort. State what needs to be accomplished to make this place happy again. Stop arguing and tearing people down. And…….don’t leave the Downs. Another member leaving this place will cause much, much more damage than davem being banished.

In hope that things will clear up soon,

Folwren

[Glirdan]

I have been a little hesitant to even consider looking at this thread, but it seems that the bug has finally lured me in.

First things first, I may not know all the details on Davem's band (and personally, I do not have time to pour over every post he's made to see what he's said that could be offensive...), but I will say that I am slightly displeased. Yes, displeased. However, I will say no more on this subject as I regard the mods and admins with great regard and whatever their decision is, no matter how much we are displeased, angered, frustrated or annoyed with them for it, we must respect that fact that THEY have the authority here. Whatever choice they make may (and in their eyes hopefully will) make this site an even better place to be a part of than it originally was.

Secondly, I must concur with Saurreg. I used to get home after school or wake up in the morining to many posts in a variety of threads. These past few days, when I have just quickly jumped on to see what was happening, I've noticed that the talk has been very subdued and less spontaneous than what it used to be. The Books forum has gone down hill from the looks of things. The Mirth section (which was a favorite haunt of most of us) seems to have fallen. The only positive things I can say is that the RPG forums seem to be getting quite a bit of visiting as well as the Quotable Quotes and Quiz Room forums.

Granted, I am happy that the RPG's and the other two are getting more visits as they were falling slightly down hill. But we're here to have fun and get to know new people from around the globe (and I can gladly say that I have become good friends with quite a few members [you know who you are]). We used to have lots of laughs and jokes in the Mirth forum. But now, everything is less spontaneous and it saddens me. I always used to look forward to reading what funny thing was posted about the latest picture in Crazy Captions. The Werewolf games (although they have slightly lost their taste) were always a fun way to get into the RP spirit, even if it was indirectly. Yes, a lot of us (myself included) probably had lapses of stress because we were worrying about being killed off. But that was the fun things about it. The Mirth forum has lost it's spontaneousness. It's true Davem never had a big part in it, but it seems that because of his departure, it has affected all of us who normally posted there.

The Books forum seemed to be one of his favorite haunts and as said previously, it has gone downhill. This also saddens me. We are all Tolkien lovers here. We are here to express our joy in that which the dear Professor brought to us. We are here to honour his memory by discussing the finer parts of his great litterary works. We are here to discuss what we didn't like about the books (done in a proper manner mind you). Granted I've never played a big role in the Books forum (but that's because I feel quite intimidated next to all of you [Davem especially] and because what I wanted to say, had been said before hand).

The Movies forum also was a favorite of many and that seems to have fallen as well. It's true that PJ made the movies without the aid of Tolkien. But I must say that what he had to work with, he did an amazing job. Yes, there are those who would disagree with me. But that is what this site is about. Is to discuss our love of Lord of the Rings, an amazing piece of literary work and film making.

I guess what I am trying to say is that we (as in all of you) are spending time brooding over something that, in the Barrow-Wight's mind, had to be done to make this place better for us all. Thechnically, we have no power to reverse this decision. Yes, I am quite sorrowful at the banishment of Davem. I have even asked Celuien to add my name to her list of members who aren't happy about this decision. My reasoning? Not out of spite of the mods and admins. But for the reason that I am sad to see such a reputed member, a great thinker and an amazing person leave us for (what it seems like) eternity. For the reason that I do not think (in my mind anyway) that they should have banned him. I completely respect the mods decisions, even if I don't agree with it. After all, they are the authority and they are doing what's best for the site.

But I must agree with something that Davem said before hand in his farewell thread. He is the way he is. There is absolutely nothing that we can do about it. I personally don't think he should be banned for acting the way he does. He says he can't change and I agree. I have tried to change myself for so long and it just doesn't work. It may work sometimes, but not in every case. That is why I disagree with the mods.

However, I believe instead of brooding on what has been done, we try and get back to having fun. Yes, we can miss Davem's intelligence and his humour. But do we have to debate about it constantly? I will miss Davem, even though I've talked to him maybe once in my entire year on this web site. I may only be 16, but I am mature for my age (and I would assume that my writing and this post would reflect that...or I would hope anyway).

I know that this may seem to not have had a point (my posts never do seem to have a clear point do they?) but beneath all of this confusion, there is a point. Let us a move on past all this frustration towards the mods. Let us get back to having fun and discussing the things we enjoy discussing. Let's get back to honoring our dear professor. Miss Davem all you want. I am not saying that we shouldn't. Heck, I will miss him greatly! But we cannot brood on this forever. But you cannot do it as openly as you have and with as much animosity towards the mods and admins as most of you have. Even if you haven't outwardly said you're angry, you can tell in a person's posts by their writing.

So, let us move on. Let us get back to things that we enjoy and miss Davem without all this animosity, anger, frustration and annoyance.

That's all I have to say.

Yours always,

~Glirdy~

[Lalwendë]

Firstly, why have people decided to do this statement? Well you'll have to ask them; I cannot speak for individuals' different emotions over this, it was not even my idea. There is a general feeling of great discomfort and not a little sorrow, so perhaps that's the overarching motivator; for myself I am motivated by sorrow that the Downs has turned out to be not the place I thought it to be and the intense upset caused to davem.

Has the Books forum been in decline? Yes it has, and we have lost its champion, the man who would spend hours pouring over books and finding new topics to discuss. Why, after he left the Bible thread he even started yet another fantastic thread, which should show his commitment and lay to rest the myth that he wanted to be banned. Nothing has taken off in the same way since. And yes, people could get together to post things, but do people fele like posting right now? I know for myself I could spend an hour or more on a post, several volumes of HoME at my side, but do I want to dedicate my time to that endeavour now?

And why not? There is the fear of being banned - as I've said tone is a very intangible matter - and having your work wasted. There is also the niggling feeling that here I am, writing away, and what for? Who for? Other Downers? As has been made clear over and over, this site does not belong to common or garden members but to the team who head it up. So I am therefore spending my time giving them free content. Most websites would pay a lot of money for such dedicated input. I have the niggling feeling that thanks are not passing down a two-way street. Of course we are glad the admin team take the time to run the site, but this is also a privilege for them, a conferring of status and power. What do members get in this relationship? That's up to the mods of course, but bear my next point in mind.

At face value this is just another website, a collection of bytes and whatnot. However nowadays forums and bulletin boards are something more than this. They are communities. They are Villages. They have populations. And relationships form. The admins must oversee this, but they must also think about how they do this, and the ethics involved once they embark on the creation of a new Village.

Many tangible communities practice 'shunning', whereby if you do not follow the rules then you are ostracised (e.g. the Amish, religious 'cults') for good. Of course this is one way of exercising control, but it is an extreme way. Whether the members accept 'shunning' very much depends upon their own level of either education about the outside world, brain washing or addiction. In this community few of us are 'brain-washed' so we feel we must express our distaste and distress at what has happened to a member of the community whom we love. And even for some who do not love davem, they have concerns about the ethics of the case, the evidence to them is just not there.

As I say, when you create a community, you also create a complex web of human relationships and one tug on a thread can bring those relationships tumbling down. A forum aint just a website.

About some specifics brought up.

Davem was not banned first time out for behaviour. He was annoyed that due to his response to a spat in a thread he was the one being reprimanded. Parties on both sides were in the wrong, davem was the one who was blamed for off colour humour (however, being deeply patronising is not an inappropriate tone, so it seems), and eventually he decided he'd had enough and was going to leave for a bit. He was beaten, he'd taken all the blame, he was lying on the ground, but then the mod team came along and gave him a boot in the ribs just for good measure - a week's ban. Sorry, but I have to say if there was one way to antagonise someone then this was surely it.

Remember davem was man enough to leave the Bible thread when he was asked. He then went on to create a brilliant thread and it was all forgotten about as far as he was concerned. As for the so-called snide asides he made, he was laughing at himself and his hobbyhorse, as we all do now and then. He'd forgotten about it and was only concerned with getting Books back in business. Whether these statements were of the wrong 'tone' is entirely down to personal interpretation. I have mine - and I was there so I know why he said them. Mods thought otherwise as they were still angry he dared to argue his case.

And onto that subject. Davem is 46 years old. He is not 13. He also thought he was a friend of many of the mods, and as such would be able to discuss matters with the mods. He was wrong alas. Misjudgement. He was deeply upset by this afterwards. Nobody thought about how upset this would make davem. This was deeply unpleasant. However many things posted since (including boasts about the importance in the world of Tolkien scholarship of people who have been banned before) have revealed the levels of machismo and male ego that may be involved here; no man likes being argued with after all. Maybe if you all (davem included) were made to cuddle fluffy bunny wabbits and wear bras and dresses and do nurturing things for a week you would learn some of the subtleties of human relationships and drop the ego?

Come on. This was all just a stupid argument that blew up into a misunderstanding and then became some sort of vendetta resulting in davem waking up to find a horse's head in his bed (no not me, that's a mafia reference...). He's not evil, the mods aren't evil (SpM is very interesting to talk to when he's off topic). What can be done to get rid of the bad smell. I have ideas but they might not be popular as they would challenge male egos.

Get back to normal? Aye mebbe. But I've lost me rose tinted spex. It's like finding out that Father Christmas is really your dad in his underpants, he's got mince pie stains on his vest and he stinks of stale booze.

[The Saucepan Man]

Lalwendë, there were repeated requests, here and elsewhere, for a full explanation of why davem was banned, yet when they are given you say that we (presumably those providing those explanations) are digging ourselves a deeper hole. Either you accept the explanations as being honestly given and that the decision was made in good faith, whether you agree with it or not, or you don’t. If you don’t, then the only real alternative is that the mods/admins involved acted in bad faith and/or with ulterior motives, and that those who have provided the explanations are either actively lying or, at the very least, being economical with the truth. That is not the case but, if you believe it, then there is likely to be nothing that I, or anyone, can say to convince you otherwise.

As to whether davem’s ban was justified, I have, again, provided just about as full an explanation now as I feel that I can give. To reiterate it, in its essence, the fact is that the entire mod/admin team involved thought davem’s posts to be inappropriate and, in many cases, offensive and members were in fact offended by them. That is more than sufficient justification, in my view, for the warnings that were given and the temporary ban. The fact that davem continued to post in the same manner, after those repeated warnings and that temporary ban, in my view fully justified the full ban issued by The Barrow-Wight.

Just to be clear, though, there was no favouring one “side” or silencing another. Davem had ample opportunity to make his views known on that thread and did so at length. His position was, I am sure, fully understood by all contributing to it some time before any serious problem arose. As I have said, I agreed with him in essence. Additionally, in answer to Boromir88, I would reiterate a point made in my earler post:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I always tried to avoid being overly officious or heavy-handed as a moderator. However, the Downs is a community. One with a few perfectly straightforward (and, in my view, perfectly reasonable) rules. In any society, one should not simply ignore the rules which govern it, persist in challenging them and “agree to disagree” with those charged with enforcing them.

If anyone remains concerned over this issue, go back and read the LotB thread in its entirety and then read all of davem’s posts after he withdrew from the discussion. It’s not the whole story, because there were also PMs involved, but it’s pretty compelling in my view. If you read (or have read) all of that and still disagree, then again there is nothing that I, or anyone else, can say to change your mind.

As for this “tone” issue, no one (spammers and trolls apart) need worry about being banned without being warned and told exactly why a particular post, comment, manner etc is inappropriate. This happens very, very rarely. Rarer still is the case where someone ends up being banned because of repeated disruptive, abrasive and offensive behaviour. Including davem, it has happened only twice in the (nearly) four years that I have been here. That, in my view, is because people instinctively know when something that they have drafted or posted has over-stepped the mark. My experience of discussions on this forum, both serious and light-hearted, tells me very clearly that virtually everyone, if not everyone, who posts here regularly knows what is appropriate and what is not.

Warnings are not given and bans are not implemented because of some machismo urge to satisfy male ego. They are given and implemented because the mods/admins (both male and female) consider, after deliberation, that it is appropriate to do so.

What was the purpose of this thread? My understanding from the petition was that it was to seek further clarification for davem’s ban and reassurance that members will not be banned without warning and without being given a very clear indication as to why whatever it was that prompted the warning was considered inappropriate. I feel that I have said all that I can to address those concerns. There is not much more that I can usefully say.

Finally, for the record, I wish to make clear that I am English (very much so), I am a keen libertarian, I have no strong religious beliefs, I have (or at least like to think that I have) a good sense of humour, and I am a long standing Monty Python fan. None of those qualities alter my assessment of this matter.

[Meneltarmacil]

I'm concerned that this argument is starting to go too far. I've seen forums starting to go quiet lately, forums that had been seeing a lot of activity in the last few weeks. The "Fortunately/Unfortunately" thread, for one, was virtually guaranteed to have several responses per day, yet it hasn't been seeing much activity lately.

Boromir88, if your intention is to leave this forum, I can't stop you, but I'd rather we didn't lose such a respected and highly intelligent person who contributes so much to this forum like yourself (I'm referring to you here, Boro). Plus, I still haven't had the chance to devour you in Werewolf yet .

Believe me, I don't think davem or the mods want the Barrow-Downs to start dying as a result of this argument. We've been an excellent community for over five years now, and it would be a shame to see us all go our separate ways at this point.

[Boromir88]

I do not believe there is anything wrong with feeling that this is a community. We need to put this to a rest and get on with it. If you want something in specific to happen or change then just say it.~Valier

That's always the best thing, right? Just go back to the tea and crumpets and forget the whole thing. It never happened, it didn't happen, so stop saying it did. But see Valier, I can't move on if this is the way that mods will handle future situations just when things get heated.

Rules are part of everything. I thought it was understood that the Mods are in charge, if they don't have the right to ban someone then who does?

Of course, and I don't hear anyone crying for anarchy, oh please anything but that. But let's be at least a little honest and realistic here. Mods and Admins are just like us, therefor they are prone to possibly making a wrong decision (though they may feel it's what's best). Obviously they thought that banning davem would be the best thing to do for the forum, but that doesn't mean it necessarily was the best thing for the forum.

Estel, all I can say is pretty much what drigel said...this isn't some davem worshiping cult mongering fan club (well lal might be...and maybe some others, but I'm certainly not) I respect him, but if I felt like he was insulting myself and my beliefs, I sure as heck wouldn't respect him anymore. I just feel that if this is how the mods will handle the business just when a thread gets out of hand, than what's the point of having arguments anymore?

Just to be clear, though, there was no favouring one “side” or silencing another.

Oh, but that's certainly how it appeared to me...davem was asked repeatedly to let the subject go, just leave, while the rest was able to (if they so wanted) to continue on with their opinions. You as the mods personally may have agreed with davem, but looks like took up a babying role so one side wouldn't get their 'feelings hurt.' And as Mod that's supposed to be expected, but I also thought you were supposed to be impartial...just seemed like you only were interested in going after davem because he spoke against the side that was saying there were references to christianity.

As what's been presented to us that seems to be what the whole discussion of the mods was about. It wasn't about anyone else, or what anyone else had said, it was about what davem said because he was against the 'Christianity in Tolkien.' You may not have been favouring one side over the other, but you did choose to only go after one side, or more specifically one person.

Now I hear well that all davem needed to do was just listen and be a good boy, listen to the warnings and everything would be fine. But why should he have, if he honestly felt what he was doing wasn't wrong? Who did feel like it was wrong? Well, I guess the people that count did.

See, you say that the way the rules are applied haven't been changed, but I certainly have never seen a situation such as the LOTR Bible handled this way before. Maybe it doesn't happen a lot (and therefor fortunately I wasn't around before when it did), but there are many times when we get heated and irritated by some threads and some people. We do lose our heads at times, that's going to happen. The thing is, what should happen (or at least the way I've seen it applied in the past by mods) is a mod stepped in, stopped things, and just said hatch out your problems somewhere else...or the two members would just agree to move on and iron things out right there. Mods just didn't privately and publicly warn one person to 'tone it down' it was both people (or parties) involved.

That's not what I saw happening here, I saw one side...no one person, that was gone after and told to stop. (Which I still fail to see why it was necessary, but that's differing opinion for you, I'm not making the decision). So, I can say I fully understand why davem feels the way he did and as he shows in formendacil's and fordim's blogs.

There may not have been any difference in the way the Rules were applied. If you felt like what davem said was out of hand, that's your decision...but what has changed (in my view) is that in this case you chose to stop one side. (This is for those of you who ask for explanations as far as why the downs has changed and why it's grown to be a gushy-softy forum, of 'lets not hurt eachother anymore'. You say there's more to it than that, and if you can't tell us, than you simply can't. I gotta go by what I see. And what I saw was not how the situation had been dealt with in the past.

(I'm not saying anything about his character or his contribution to the 'Downs or anything...they are not part of the issue: I'm simply saying what I had a problem with.)

Thank you for stepping out Durelin, I'm actually rather glad someone did. I guess I should clear up that I'm not saying what davem said could not be taken as an insult, as that's all up to the individual. I really didn't see much to make of it, but hey, that's just me. I got a feeling that it was made into too big of a deal and just grew rapidly, as you are indeed the first person that has expressed an uneasiness about davem's post. If that's how you saw it then that's how you saw it.

Nogrod, :thumbs up:, I know there's no conspiracy theory, or if there is one I'm greatly fooled and that's my own fault . I'm just concerned that this was actually not the usual way the situation is approached when we do get a little angered and irritated...and if this same thing will happen in the future, than well I don't know what I'd do yet.

Menel, it's great to hear that, rather flattering too. Honestly, I really don't know what's going to happen. I wanted to try to find out some answers and get some concerns answered. Perhaps, I wasn't too clear, I do appreciate what the moderators have done to come and and explain the situation. I know they don't have to, and they didn't have to, but they felt like it was a necessary. I just don't like the reasoning behind it, because I still don't think it was 'normal' forum policy, and they were applying the Rules like they've always done.' Maybe they were applying the Rules as they always did to davem (and to anyone else who they felt was being 'uncivil' in their posting), but I don't think they dealt with the situation the same way. (To know what I mean it should be reiterated several times in this very post).

[Nogrod]

addenda...

Originally Posted by Spm

What was the purpose of this thread? My understanding from the petition was that it was to seek further clarification for davem’s ban and reassurance that members will not be banned without warning and without being given a very clear indication as to why whatever it was that prompted the warning was considered inappropriate.

You are somewhat right here. I quess many of us felt it really disturbing that just after davem had been banned for a short period of time - and came back - he was banished for ever just like that, *flush*, without any further notice or warning or anything. That I think disturbed many of us - and I think still disturbs.

-----------------

I have never been a friend of any "conspiration-theories" as I see them just voicing peoples hope to have the world look easy & simple and to get a culprit nailed (like the Nazis or modern day fundamentalists) instead of seeing the world as really a complicated place with differing interests and options. But really, Boromir voiced one of my concerns here:

Personally I didn't feel like what davem said was out of line by your own admission SpM you say nobody lodged a complaint, nobody contacted a mod for his removal or felt he had created some huge hurtful Crusade against religion. So, if nobody felt offended by his remarks why was it such a problem to the mods? It's the mods jobs to make sure to keep this as a friendly and an accepting environment as possible...if nobody had a problem with what he said (and I have yet to see or hear from somebody that did) than why did the mods feel like what he was saying was out of line? What gave them the feeling like what davem was doing was harming the 'good community' of the downs, if nobody felt offended by his remarks?

I had already let go of this suspicion and thought of myself being too taken with the subject-matter (being a non-believer myself), but as Boro states, the logic doesn't back the point? How come he was banned indeed if not for his views? Is there something that has not been revealed here?

I really would like to continue with a point made by Valier to show a thing:

When I first heard that Davem was banned I thought of course he had to have done something really bad to have been banned. So I checked out the thread for myself, and as soon as I saw that it had to do with religion I didn't need to read any more. Religion is a touchy subject.
I understand where the mods where coming from. If I myself were a Mod and saw that the topic of religion was starting to heat up, and one person was lighting it, I would kindly ask that person to watch what they say.

Now this tells a lot. If you have a thread were the christian aspects of the LotR or other works of Tolkien are discussed approvingly, that is just allright ("Aragorn had a long hair - like Jesus had", copyright by davem, I think? ), no one will come saying that's inappropriate. But when those people think that anyone proposing alternative viewpoints is just downright wrong because of him not sharing the christian point of view, what then? I can see davem's bitterness here as justified: really thought of points and countless hours of thought and deliberation vs. "Hey, isn't Gandalf the White like a resurrection of Christ - so Tolkien wrote him as a christ?" (as he wrote Frodo and Aragorn and Eowyn and...)

If it is so, that is scary how nicely you soften it. If one viewpoint is right without any question and challenging it is not... and include the tone issue: you can preach one interpretation as you will but not another... I didn't see this as a fair judgement, even with the explanations. The "other side" of these debates was at many times as bullying and stubborn (although lacking davem's argumentative skills). So shouldn't you have banned all those flamers there?

But what I am even more worried about, is the attitue of Glirdy and the Only Real Estel. I know Glirdy is a young guy and that should be counted in favour of him (no offence Glirdy, really!), of the Real Estel I know nothing, so leave that be.

But really, this is a question of someone! Hey, a fellow Barrow-Downer! Not just one "freak" you stumbled in the MySpace or who sent you an offer for Viagra or something; whatever, he is / was a colleague, a friend, one of your own community!

And it's not someone you browse as an alias on a random-site, but a real human being who has dedicated lot more hours / years to this thing any one of us could even imagine and whom you have somewhat known during a long time! And yes, and most poignantly, someone to whom this site & the discussion probably was more than to any one of those trying to downplay his situation ("well, that's just one downer, everything's all right soon").

So show some grace, some virtue, please! Maybe turning the other cheek here could be considered if you're so sure about the message and so pure as you think (mainly relating to those in whose interests the bannig of davem was) - or can you choose by your own feeling, which parts of the Scripture to follow and which not? "Jesus loved his enemies but we shall have no mercy with davem, no way, he should go!"

Maybe there is no conspiracy - I think there isn't - but if there were people who made complaints about davem and demanded his downfall, I think they really should be brave enough (virtuos, courageous, human...) to come forwards and show why they are good people to the BD's whereas davem is not... and what were their arguments! Hiding in the shadows is not moral nor is it even christian...

---------
I really have appreciated Spm's and Alatar's posting here as they have made me feel that I've on the road to understanding what has happened (and they made a couple of good points I hadn't considered earlier).

But there are question-marks still... If we are honest, everyone should be.

I really think this discussion has all the potentiality to clean the air here and make this site flower again, I really trust that being so.

But we may also break a lot of things.

I hope we do not.

There are too many good things in this site for it. (You see, I'm "backtracking" also as I like this site too much! I don't know whether it tells good of the site or ill of myself... )

[The Only Real Estel]

Well I guess I'll chime in on this.

First off - I don't want to come off as anti-davem. Though I didn't have a lot of contact with him I am not so short-sighted that I can't see he was generally a wonderful member who contributed a wealth of information, etc., etc. as everyone has said. I enjoyed the small debate that we had in the LotB thread, & he did as well. If he wanted to come back & the powers that be allowed it that would be just fine.

But why again is the sky falling?

Originally Posted by Saurreg

After all, what's there left now that the good stuff is gone?

What? Because one member is gone? Yes, davem is a loss, & I don't want to trivialize it or sound cold. But suggesting that the content is declining based solely upon that? As has been said, discussion in the Books was "declining" long before Werewolf and other things broke onto the scene and gathered even more attention away, it hasn't been an overnight thing. davem contributed a great deal but are you suggesting that "if only davem were here, everything would be fine again”? If Downers think the discussion is lagging then I can’t for the life of me see why they don't do something about it instead of wishing davem was here to do it...

I understand you can't replace him but for all the talk of the effect davem has had on people you'd think you could've picked up a thing or two from him rather than appear completely lost without his reasoning.

Originally Posted by Thin

Yes, there was an explanation in the Coming of age club -thread *a nod of approval towards SPM*, but I wonder how many of the 'downers ever saw it. In my opinion, the information should be provided so that members have a better access to it.

If people didn't see it they can do what I did, PM another member & ask for information. What do you want the mods to do - create a thread entitled Why davem Was Banned and leave it there for two months? Three? Four?

If you really want other members to be more aware of it then post a link to Sauice's post in your signature...did you happen to read alatar’s post above yours? I don't understand why you're clamouing for "better access" when there is a very detailed and, in my opinion, well put explanation right there.

Originally Posted by alatar

davem was disregarding/taunting mods, the rules, and setting a poor example

That is the way I saw it, though I wasn't personally insulted, & I couldn't believe I saw it coming from davem. In my opinion he was four times the member than the way he was acting. Yes, Lal, I've read all you've said about Tone and I understand where you're coming from. But when you've been informed many times that what you're doing is unacceptable is it that difficult to stop?

He may have meant something completely harmless by it but if the management on the Downs deems that it is out of line then who is to decide? davem? Right or wrong it has to be the moderating team, and if you think they are abusing their powers then I simply don't see it.

Side not: Boro has posted as I've been typing this up and I just want to point out that Sauice said the decision to ban him wasn't based on members complaning. He didn't say no members complained (that I've seen). But there are probably quite a few members out there like me, if I was offended by something I wouldn't go tattle to the moderators first thing...they have to watch out for those members also.

Originally Posted by Lal

Unfortunately some people could not see that because maybe they love other things more than Tolkien or the Downs.

Or maybe others love their habits of using irony, sarcasm, & occasional downright ridicule too much to give up when asked repeatedly. I don't see how a matter of "Tone" on a touchy subject can't be adjusted if "Tolkien and the Downs" is the chief care and concern.

Originally Posted by Also posted by Lal

And what did davem do in the end? He. Left. The. Thread.

Yes, technically. At last, at the constant urging of the moderators, he did the right thing for all concerned and left. But then what did he do? He continued to make reference to it, almost as if to say "oh by the way, remember that subject? I'm still right on it..." which is unnecessary and, quite frankly - though I hate to say it about him - childish. Yes, he was using it as metaphors & examples but there are countless other things that someone as creative as davem could've used.

Lastly, I don't buy this "we are all afraid of one misstep getting us banned!" response. Please. As alatar said:

Originally Posted by alatar

Afraid of getting banned? From what I’ve seen, you’d really really have to work at it to be successful. Not sure if the content of your post is verboten? Ask a mod, or better, see if there’s something similar elsewhere in the forum and try to figure it out from there.

Or, no offence to davem, maybe try getting the point about the third time you're warned? It doesn't matter if you think the mods are being unreasonable or not, if you truly want to avoid a ban you will cease whatever it is that you're doing.

Originally Posted by Saurreg

Users seem to be accutely aware of the animosity in the air and stricter overseeing of the forums and thus fear to tread carelessly lest they share Davem's fate. I mourn for the innocence lost.

I'm treading as carefully (or carelessly, however you like ) as I ever did.

It's being made out like a temporary ban is about to be dropped on anyone all-or-a-sudden; like walking along the street & suddenly stepping into a pothole and breaking your ankle. Downers, that just isn't the case!

If the street is lined with signs stating "Beware pothole ahead!" "Careful, turn back" "Watch your step!" & perhaps even "Warning, pothole right here \/" and you keep going you have no one to blame but yourself.

Again a side note on Boro's post: If the matter is "we're all afraid of saying the wrong thing and being watched extra closely" then I still don't see the uproar. First offences do not bring you immediate probation. If you disagree you can always talk it over with a mod through a PM but in the end if you're going to insist you have the right to overrule a moderator or the Barrow-Wight then the very reason for them to volunteer their time has gone by the wayside.

[Boromir88]

Hookbill, that may be what some of us wish to see, but I think there's a bigger problem. The banning of davem is done with, the mods seemed to have discussed this greatly and felt like it was the best decision for the site. But, I see a bigger problem here developing. Now that SpM, alatar, and the mods have stepped out and explained the situation more clearly (that which I am thankful for) I see these problems developing more clearly.

Is it logical for me to say that the reason davem was banned, because the mods felt what he was doing fell under, flaming, trolling, and spamming? Since he had continued to discuss the topic of Christianity outside the LOTR bible thread?

SpM,

Myth 1: The Downs “management” is intolerant of views, beliefs and opinions which dissent from their own.

Whoever, started this myth, or whoever thinks it's true I'll be more than happy to tell them differently...just send them to me. You know fully well that I've disagreed with you several times...I wouldn't be surprised if I haven't disagreed with a moderator or admin. This has never been a problem in my view.

Myth 2: Members are increasingly at risk of being banned without justification.

I wouldn't call it so much a concern as far as a member getting banned from something they said. I think it's more of a concern of what is it that we can say or can't say? A concern that are we writing something here where a mod is going to come out give us a slap on the wrist, and restrict what we further say in the future.

Personally I didn't feel like what davem said was out of line by your own admission SpM you say nobody lodged a complaint, nobody contacted a mod for his removal or felt he had created some huge hurtful Crusade against religion. So, if nobody felt offended by his remarks why was it such a problem to the mods? It's the mods jobs to make sure to keep this as a friendly and an accepting environment as possible...if nobody had a problem with what he said (and I have yet to see or hear from somebody that did) than why did the mods feel like what he was saying was out of line? What gave them the feeling like what davem was doing was harming the 'good community' of the downs, if nobody felt offended by his remarks?

There have been times that I've found people's remarks offending, and I'm sure people have felt like what I've said before may be rather harsh. I don't think that's an intent on anyone here, and that's certainly not my intent, and I did not catch that intent in davem. If that does happen where some people did feel like they were insulted, than as Saurreg states there always seemed to be a self-modding from the members. They chat a bit, hatch out their problems and move on. If no one felt insulted or hurt by davem's remarks why should he stop from expressing his own opinion?

The point I'm trying to make, anytime you put up a thread or a topic, that topic should not be restricted to simply one view and one opinion allowed on that thread only. What good comes out of that? Ignorance to the other opinion does absolutely no one any good. Why is it that threads must be restricted only to talk about 'references to christianity, references to buddhism, references to whatever it may be,' and anyone that comes in to say 'This is not how I see it, this is not how Tolkien felt' constitutes a banning? That's how I've seen what happened here.

You say that since davem ignored repeated warnings to stop his belaboring against the members who felt like there was christianity in the story, davem had to go. The whole thing is, they weren't attacks, or at least I didn't see them as attacks, and apparently nobody did. I saw it as a challenge, I saw it as somebody who had a different view than me, and therefor I saw it as a test and as a person to argue against. You claim that this is a very accepting site of opinions, in which case I used to agree (to a certain extent I still do). But it seems rather biased to me that somebody had to stop saying what he felt, while others were free to continue to post their opinion on the subject.

Myth 3: The forum policies have changed or are being applied differently.

Aye, but the question is did what davem post constitute as 'disrespectful' and 'abrasive' attitude? If I felt like davem didn't respect my religion, I wouldn't respect him the way I do. I wouldn't respect him as a person. He expressed his opinion, arguments did get heated, but I didn't witness him insulting anyone or a particular group of people (rather he went against those that wanted to use LOTR to push their own agenda- and I find it comparable to authors that like to use the Tolkien to rake in their own profit). So, I don't see how his post to people outside the forum have anything to do with it.

Myth 4: The Downs “management” had ulterior motives in banning davem.

See what I felt about Myth 1.

Myth 5: Davem was banned because of persistent requests from one member or a small group of members.

This was not the case. Davem was banned because the mods/admins considered it appropriate, not because any member called for it. I can assure you that any suggestion or speculation that any one member or group of members demanded that davem be banned is wholly incorrect.

Here's where my biggest concern comes, was it offending, why is it that the mods felt that what he was doing was inappropriate and created an unhealthy atmosphere to the site? Going back, you say that since he ignored repeated warnings to leave the LOTR Bible thread to rest, then he continued to talk about religion and Tolkien outside the thread, that's why he was banned. This begs the question, if no one felt they were being insulted, why was it necessary to tell davem to stop posting his opinion? Why was it necessary to have him repeatedly warned to just let go the LOTR bible debate, while people were still allowed to express their different opinions? Why is it that the discussion of the topics that are sited in SpM's explanation felt they needed to be restricted to a certain opinion?

It appears to me there was some sort of babying the moderators did in this situation. To try to keep one side happy, and freely discussing their own opinion, while he was being told that he had to stop. This is what appears to be what davem didn't like, and I don't advocate it either. From the posts on fordim's and formendacil's blogs, I took that he didn't appreciate he had to stop posting his different opinion, while others were allowed to go on and share their wonderful little conversations of 'Yes, you're right, I agree. You are perfectly correct. That's so true!' (because to start criticizing and critiquing that belief is 'bad.') I don't enjoy those conversations, I'm prone in the movies thread especially, to simply argue against the popular belief of the thread just so we can get a discussion going instead of one big thread of everyone agreeing with eachother. We all like debates, we all like arguments, there have always seemed to have been great tolerance by the mods to allow this, UNTIL the LOTR Bible thread, when one person had to leave the thread at peace and let it go. But the question is why did he have to let his opinion go?

Myth 6, I don't feel is an issue here either so I won't discuss it.

Myth 7: Discussion is dying following davem’s ban.

Well I think book discussion has been declining over the years, long before davem's ban. That's apparent...though it really doesn't help things out when you get rid of a member who always had the insightful and provoking post and contributor to the books forum. It may have been in decline, but getting rid of a solid contributor to the forum only furthers the decline.

Myth 9: like 1 and 4 I know there is no truth to it at all, so not an issue.

So, I guess you can say my biggest concern with what was done is:

1) The Books forum and it's intriging great conversations of old, which davem always seemed to be a part of will continue on a spiral downward trend. There will be fewer and fewer threads where we have two opposing sides arguing their opinion, because of a fear that a mod will come over their shoulder and say 'No no no.'

I can see if davem was a nuisance and cancer to the forum I would be more than happy to make this trade off. But was he causing so many problems that he was a cancer? To the mods it appears so, but I think you fellas made too much out of nothing.

2) It seems like you (by you I mean the mods and admins) went off an instinct that felt like davem's attitude towards the religious viewpoints in several threads was unacceptable, and since he went to other threads to continue the debate he was challenging your authority. Since you were going off this instinct, you watched him and looked for any possible post where he was going against your authority and your warnings. Aye, but was davem challenging your authority as mods, or was he challenging the flimsical and biased reasons for why he was being warned? Aye, now there's the question.

Indeed I would trade one davem for 50 'Yes that's so true...you are dead on' people anyday.

[Valier]

I know that I am relitavely new here, but I have some thoughts on this that I would like to share.
First off I agree whole heartedly with Folwren on everything she has to say. What does everyone hope to accomplish with this? Is this just a way to let everyone express how they feel, or do you want something to come out of this?

Rules are part of everything. I thought it was understood that the Mods are in charge, if they don't have the right to ban someone then who does?

When I first heard that Davem was banned I thought of course he had to have done something really bad to have been banned. So I checked out the thread for myself, and as soon as I saw that it had to do with religion I didn't need to read any more. Religion is a touchy subject.
I understand where the mods where coming from. If I myself were a Mod and saw that the topic of religion was starting to heat up, and one person was lighting it, I would kindly ask that person to watch what they say. If that person continued to not "play by the rules" then it is their right as the Mods to ask him to leave.

Now I also understand how some people who knew Davem would be upset about this, but it was by his own choice right? I really have no feeling that at any time I will be banned without notice...that's just rubbish! I have thorougly enjoyed my time here and I would hate something like this to turn members off from coming here.

I have to say also that the comment about all the serious discussions going down hill since Davem's ban is kinda offending.I never noticed a big change. There is always lulls, remember new people come here all the time and lots of "newbie's" have shared very useful, serious and interesting things on this site. And just because there are not as many serious threads is that so bad? Something will come up, but in the mean time there is nothing wrong with a little fun.

I do not believe there is anything wrong with feeling that this is a community. We need to put this to a rest and get on with it. If you want something in specific to happen or change then just say it.

I myself think the Mods do a great job keeping weird and offensive people off this site and if sometime in the future something like this happens again, I am sure the Mods will deal with it fairly and tactfully. Really would it solve or help anything if the Mods posted their concerns about members as threads? No. Leave it up to them.
I doubt that my post will make a differnce about anything, but I felt the need to express how I felt, however uneloquently it may be.

Signed a new, but not so new member. Valier