For a drearier, scarier, better ‘downs.

[JennyHallu]

arcticstorm,

If you feel there are great discussions to be had on Tolkien's minor works, then post a topic, start a discussion. There are no rules or policies limiting conversations concerning the minor works, and it is the policies of the forum which are, I believe, what Farael is targetting here.

If the Minor Works are not well-represented in the topics in the books forum, it is because no one has started threads concerning them.

Farael,

I wholeheartedly support your proposal concerning the books forum. This forum has enjoyed the long time support of many of its users, with archives going back for years. Books discussions have touched on a multitude of topics, and before the spiders disappeared it was a delight to follow them into dusty threads, many imported from the old forum, where it was common to find the newest post was in 2002.

Now, it is an incredible and an exciting thing that there are still many active members here who took part in these four-year-old discussions, but it must be remembered that the internet is an active and dynamic medium, and I think we here should reflect that.

I feel that there are many members in my position: Though I have quickly risen to a position of high reputation, and, I hope, respect, I have only been truly active in the Mirth and RPG fora, though I have posted occasionally in Books. Why have I not posted there more often? There are two main reasons.

1. Though I am well-read, and a practiced debator (Quite literally: I spent four years competing in formal debate like less nerdy children compete in sports.), my Tolkien scholarship is not up to the level of many in this forum. Topics and discussions that are old-hat to many of the experts who participate (and have, for years, participated) are yet new and fascinating to me. The more esoteric discussions the forum has, in recent years, focussed on, are challenging to those rich in Tolkien knowledge, but so far above my head that I can participate with little more than occasional comments.
2. It is more than intimidating to append my neophyte thoughts onto discussions the elite of this forum have long-ago dismissed as complete. And it is thoroughly squelching to ask a question to have it brushed aside as so much chaff. "I'm sorry, we've already covered that: you can read our opinions here..."

I believe that a thread or question should be allowed to arise anew.


I have a second proposal, but I shall not clutter this response to Farael's excellent proposal. I'll post again later.

EDIT: Squatter, look again at the new members. There was a large influx of new posters in the early part of this year, including myself.

[Macalaure]

Those are good points you raise, Farael and Jenny. I've been thinking similar for some months already, so I think this particular problem is completely independant of the davem-incident, but not much less important to solve.

I feel there is some sort of shift in the community of the Downs. There are the scholars on the one side, and there are the people who can be found in Mirth and Quizes or RPGs mainly and rarely or never contribute to the discussions on the other. I've heard many say that they would like to post more in the Books, but nevertheless they rarely do. I think Farael and Jenny already give the reason, so I won't repeat. We have the N&N board for newbies, we have The Books for the scholars, but what about the 'apprentices'? People like Farael, Jenny, me and many, many others, who are (far) beyond 'Why didn't the eagles bring the Ring to Mordor?'-questions but who struggle to follow, let alone contribute to, the scholarly discussions. It would be a drastic measure, but why not create a fourth discussion board, for us 'Wizard Pupils'? It would be a way to drag the semi-educated back into discussing Tolkien and Middle-earth instead of leaving them to waste ( ) their time in the Mirth. Of course I don't mean to exclude the scholars from that board. They would be as welcome as they're in N&N to spread their knowledge. But on 'WP' (or whatever to call it) they would be less intimidating.

We have a lot of members who are learned enough for good discussions, but not for the scholarly. We should find a way to make them discuss more - at the level of their ability. How to exactly achieve it is not important. In the long term the scholar discussions will benefit from this, too, I'm convinced.

[Boromir88]

But on 'WP' (or whatever to call it) they would be less intimidating.~Mac

Never ever feel intimidated by the discussions in the books forum, or the people that do the 'discussing.' If you've got some input, come in and put it out there. We can all learn something from the very oldest Tolkien reader, to the very youngest to the books.

We all make slip-ups and mistakes. So, if you do make an error, and somebody else corrects it, don't feel ashamed or embarassed...accept it as a learning experience and realize that the person was only trying to help you further understand.

I had an old signature about steps to take to make yourself look smarter than you truly are.

1) Only talk about the stuff you know
2) Admit it when you make a mistake
3) Agree with me

Ok. so #3's a joke (or is it?) but 1 and 2 I still try to stick to as much as possible.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Hee Hee

(Now how could I resist doing that, given such a wonderful opening.) You want a lively discussion? Read through the first page or so of that thread (skip the rest) and then post your own reply at the end.

And may the Mods forgive me...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Never ever feel intimidated by the discussions in the books forum, or the people that do the 'discussing.' If you've got some input, come in and put it out there. We can all learn something from the very oldest Tolkien reader, to the very youngest to the books.

I completely agree. Think of those 'intimidating' folks. Have you ever interacted with them outside of Books? Bet they weren't so scary when you played Werewolf with them, were they?

Don't be afraid of 'academic' discussions. It's just a bunch of stodgy old coots tossing ideas out. If you don't know what's going on, ask for an explanation.

If you don't think your questions add to the discussion, think of it this way: you're the editors. You're the sounding board. You're the audience. These aren't private conversations, they're public discussions. If the public doesn't get it, ask for them to explain it another way. Most people love to talk, so they'll happily yammer on about what they were saying twenty times if it helps you to agree with them. Books isn't scary. The only scary thing is sauntering in and saying "Hey guys, I'm dead interested, but I have no clue what you're talking about. Will you help me learn?"

Do you need some extra courage to ask? I'll taunt you, if you want.

Do it, you won't. Go on. Ask a question about what the heck's going on in a Books discussion you've been trying to follow.

I dare you.

[JennyHallu]

And yet, when's the last time you took serious, committed part in a Books discussion, Fea?

The fact remains that I don't feel the Books discussions are terribly accessible to the average forumite. And part of that is we can't start a topic on an old thread without the weight of all that's been said before hanging over us.

And ability to follow the discussions isn't the issue. It's time, and resources (I don't own HoME, or the SILM, or even the Canon, for that matter, or any of the Minor Works, or the letters, and so it's hard for me to question a Tolkien quote offered as Definitive Proof, because I don't have the context.), and the fact that Books discussions often seem like academic discussions between the two or three serious and focussed individuals who have those resources and the time. Those who seriously and often participate in Books discussions know eachotehr very well, know the forum very well, refer to discussions they had six years ago...Frankly, it feels like interrupting.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

And yet, when's the last time you took serious, committed part in a Books discussion, Fea?

The fact remains that I don't feel the Books discussions are terribly accessible to the average forumite. And part of that is we can't start a topic on an old thread without the weight of all that's been said before hanging over us.

And ability to follow the discussions isn't the issue. It's time, and resources (I don't own HoME, or the SILM, or even the Canon, for that matter, or any of the Minor Works, or the letters, and so it's hard for me to question a Tolkien quote offered as Definitive Proof, because I don't have the context.), and the fact that Books discussions often seem like academic discussions between the two or three serious and focussed individuals who have those resources and the time. Those who seriously and often participate in Books discussions know eachotehr very well, know the forum very well, refer to discussions they had six years ago...Frankly, it feels like interrupting.

So go ahead and interrupt. I don't mind -- I'm sick of talking to the same people again and again anyway, I'd love to know what a fresh pair of eyes will have to say about these ideas. Ideas, by the way, never die and good conversations never end or conclude. If someone finds a definitive answer to a question that proves one of two things:

1) the question was too simple, or

2) the person answering it is deluded.

And for what it's worth, I've never read the HoME and it's been -- gosh -- more than 15 years since I read the Sil. I do have a copy of the Letters but I hardly ever refer to it...I usually wait for somebody else to post a relevant section from a letter and then I just reply to what's there!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

And yet, when's the last time you took serious, committed part in a Books discussion, Fea?

Lord of the Bible. Twenty-nine posts. Mostly asking questions. I don't know enough about the Bible to do more than posit ideas, but I know how to ask questions and learn from them.

Before that, apart from the occasional quick post, my lengthier involvements were probably Fordim's Calling All Women, which is nearing a year ago, and an attempt at discussion on the parallels of Dante's Inferno with LotR in Lush's Descent into Hell!!! Rarrr! Well, sort of... a bit more recently. It would appear I stuck my head in on Is Eru God? for a time.

So you're right... it's been about a year since I've involved myself in Books with any sort of depth. But it was a conscious decision to devote what 'Downs time I have to fiction writing and the occasional werewolf game. If I see a topic that catches my eye, I'll post to it. But in general, I had to choose what I have time for.

However, my point was not "Look at me! I post there all the time!"

It was "Don't be afraid to post if you want to."

[JennyHallu]

I think my point has also been mostly missed.

I'm not saying that people should or should'nt be afraid of posting in the Books forum.

I'm saying that they are.

And, face it, as much as you or anyone tells me I shouldn't be intimidated doesn't change the fact that I am. And it's difficult to start a new thread when, let's face it, it's all been said. Coming back to find my question ignored except for a "refer to..." isn't encouraging.

And seriously, how often is such a referral actually a catalyst for further discussion in that old thread?

Clearly something isn't working.

It's all well and good you saying that there shouldn't be a problem. But it's not productive, nor will it help in finding a solution. I'd like to find something less drastic, however, than Mac's solution of a new forum.

[Farael]

I was rather worried this thread would get the axe... and even if not, I was so tired yesterday (and still very much so today) that I worried I'd make little sense. But I'm encouraged by the answers so far. Here's what I want to comment on for the most part.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I had an old signature about steps to take to make yourself look smarter than you truly are.

1) Only talk about the stuff you know
2) Admit it when you make a mistake
3) Agree with me

Ok. so #3's a joke (or is it?) but 1 and 2 I still try to stick to as much as possible.

Now, I have no problem with #2, and obviously, #3 is right... Boromir IS after all our chosen leader ... *ahem* but about #1, and tying in to what Jenny said...

Knowledge can be very much a matter of comparison. For example, I know more about Genetics than the average Joe (unless he happens to be a Biochem major too) but then I don't know nearly as much as a Geneticist. So how do I know if I trully know about the topic I want to post on? why, I read what has been said before.... and so it happens that there have been three posts. A long, well written and thought out opening post, an interesting and thought-provoking second post and a dissertation-like, full of quotes and references to a plethora of different works, post. Then it sinks in... All I know is that I know NOTHING (comparatively speaking)

I think that's what Jenny meant to say when she said some of the posters were "intimidating". Obviously, I'm not actually afraid of running into SPM (unless he's a werewolf. SPM is a dangerous werewolf ) but when he takes the time to make a long, thought out post it just happens that I get the feeling I'm in way over my head.

Having said that, I disagree that we should have another section for "intermediate" members. That'd be effectively the death of the Books forum. I don't think I'm a big time contributor, but some of the ones who voiced their agreement (and Macalure himself) are valuable and relatively frequent posters on the Books forum. Take that away and instead of reviving the discussion there, we are limiting it to.... well, with all due respect, the intimidating ramblings of the oldies.

Also, it may accentuate, rather than diminish, the feeling of "inadequacy" that some of us feel when compared to some older, perhaps more "experienced" in literary discussions, posters. Would the 'downs become a system of castes, where you come in as a meagre newbie, and you are discouraged to discuss things anywhere but at the NN forum, then you prove your worth and graduate to the mid-level subforum until only a few lucky chosen ones make it to THE Books forum?

I agree that, ideally, we can all look for the other times our idea has been discussed and re-open the thread, but that system is not really working, is it? Again, I'm not vouching for a cluttering of the 'downs, but rather trying to suggest some ideas of what may revive the discussions a little.

Just to show you what I mean... Pick your favourite character, thing or what ever of Tolkien's work and run it through the "Search" function.

If you come up with anything less than 50 topics you should feel fortunate. Of the 50, 40 can be discared as they probably have the words you were looking for but they have nothing to do with your idea. I.e: "Aragorn's sword, Narsil" may very well be in Crazy Captions.

Of the 10 remaining, 5 are rather short, you quickly look through them and see that they are not what you were looking for. The other 5 are much longer, you broze through them and it doesn't look like it's the same thing either.

You go ahead, post and someone answers with a link to one of those 5 longer threads. Yeah, the first post it's not the same thing you were proposing, but down on page 3, post 115 the discussion shifts a little and it resembles your idea quite a bit.

It's still not your idea, but what are you going to do about it?

So keep in mind, I'm NOT encouraging opening the same thread as before, if that's the case it should be referred and closed/merged with the other, but if it is not qutie the same thing, why not let it go and see where it ends up?

Edit:Cross-posted with half the active members of the 'downs