Gothmog as Pat - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Liriodendron · 01-12-2007, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Gothmog was portrayed as a Nazgul in a LotR wargame which I used to play many years ago (and which I still have) and I have accordingly thought of him as such ever since.

Simple reasoning for a simple soul.

Really! Someone better tell them they made a mistake!

Boromir88 · 01-12-2007, 05:19 PM

I highly doubt Gothmog was an Orc. At a stretch I can agree with Raynor about Gothmog the Man-Orc. I don't see Sauron placing an Orc in such a high position as second in command to the Witch-King. He doesn't seem the type to trust the Orcs with high tasks. They were capable of fighting, hard to control at times, Sauron operated through fear as far as controlling them. Placing an Orc second-in-command of his army isn't something I see Sauron doing. A Man-Orc I can see as a stretch, as Raynor points out they did have the leadership qualities that Orcs didn't have.

And we do know for sure that Sauron trusted Men more. As it is Men whom he gives the 9 Rings out to and it is a Man that is his Lieutenant of Barad-dur. So, why not it be a Man who is Lieutenant of his armies?

Also, to note Gothmog is in command of a group of Men. Would Men really want to be led by an Orc, and would Sauron put an Orc to lead his men? I doubt it.

As far as a Nazgul, there's nothing to say for or against it. Personally, I agree with Ninja...afterall this is a person that gets one line in the entire story. Tolkien left his Nazgul nameless, as if you don't have a name that shows you don't have an identity. You are under the complete control of another power. To give his Nazgul names is to give them an identity, therefor they remain nameless. The Witch-King is a title, and Khamul is only mentioned in a draft of Unfinished Tales, no where else so I don't think we can apply that to LOTR.

Amras Oronar · 01-13-2007, 06:58 AM

I'd say Gothmog is a Maiar, he is lord of balrogs and captain of Angband, no orc or man can do that, balrogs (maiar) are greater than man or orcs...

And a nazgul is af course redicoules, the nazgul are 'ring wraiths'. How can Gothmog be a nazgul if the rings of power were not even made to get him into that state...

Now I can't see anything but a balrog himself to be lord of balrogs.... I mean I don't think even nazgul's are powerfull enough for that

Amras Oronar · 01-13-2007, 07:03 AM

Oooohh... I think I wasn't very accurate in this, since I thought of the Gothmog of the first age not the third

Sorry.........

Legate of Amon Lanc · 01-13-2007, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I don't see Sauron placing an Orc in such a high position as second in command to the Witch-King. He doesn't seem the type to trust the Orcs with high tasks.

Only one thing, Boro. I also don't agree with Gothmog being an Orc (as I pointed out before) - but actually, Sauron gave the Orcs important tasks. I don't think that Sauron would give such a complicated and strategic-mind-needing thing like command of an entire army to the hands of an Orc, but I mean that Sauron entrusted for example Grishnakh with search for the Ringbearer (this is one thing which always puzzled me the most!).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Also, to note Gothmog is in command of a group of Men. Would Men really want to be led by an Orc, and would Sauron put an Orc to lead his men? I doubt it.

That's a good point. I'd stand for it. And one more thing - the name Gothmog, I think, was taken by someone who had some knowledge of its meaning - of its prior possessor. I doubt it was a given name. Rather - and this I find quite likely - some relentless Man leader who rose to high rank because of his ferociousness and brutality and non-questioning Sauron's orders, acquired this "nickname", or maybe he heard in the "high society" (like on a banquet in Barad-Dur where just the high officers were normally allowed) the story of Gothmog (which was narrated by the Mouth of Sauron like a funny history of old and Gothmog would normally never have heard of it) and he said himself "yeah, that's cool, from now on I'll call myself Gothmog".

ArathorofBarahir · 02-14-2007, 02:36 PM

He looks like an Orc to me.

ninja91 · 02-15-2007, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArathorofBarahir

He looks like an Orc to me.

But that is only the movie's depiction of Gothmog. There is alot of evidence (some of it stated above) that he was not an orc.

View Poll Results: Which race is Gothmog?
Nazgul	14	32.56%
Man	5	11.63%
Orc	15	34.88%
Other	9	20.93%
Voters: 43. You may not vote on this poll

01-12-2007, 05:19 PM	#2
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	I highly doubt Gothmog was an Orc. At a stretch I can agree with Raynor about Gothmog the Man-Orc. I don't see Sauron placing an Orc in such a high position as second in command to the Witch-King. He doesn't seem the type to trust the Orcs with high tasks. They were capable of fighting, hard to control at times, Sauron operated through fear as far as controlling them. Placing an Orc second-in-command of his army isn't something I see Sauron doing. A Man-Orc I can see as a stretch, as Raynor points out they did have the leadership qualities that Orcs didn't have. And we do know for sure that Sauron trusted Men more. As it is Men whom he gives the 9 Rings out to and it is a Man that is his Lieutenant of Barad-dur. So, why not it be a Man who is Lieutenant of his armies? Also, to note Gothmog is in command of a group of Men. Would Men really want to be led by an Orc, and would Sauron put an Orc to lead his men? I doubt it. As far as a Nazgul, there's nothing to say for or against it. Personally, I agree with Ninja...afterall this is a person that gets one line in the entire story. Tolkien left his Nazgul nameless, as if you don't have a name that shows you don't have an identity. You are under the complete control of another power. To give his Nazgul names is to give them an identity, therefor they remain nameless. The Witch-King is a title, and Khamul is only mentioned in a draft of Unfinished Tales, no where else so I don't think we can apply that to LOTR. __________________ Fenris Penguin

02-14-2007, 02:36 PM	#6
ArathorofBarahir Wight Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Crickhallow Posts: 247	He looks like an Orc to me. __________________ King of the Dead: The dead do not suffer the living to pass. Aragorn: You will suffer me.

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01-13-2007, 06:58 AM	#3
Amras Oronar Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Zoetermeer Posts: 29	I'd say Gothmog is a Maiar, he is lord of balrogs and captain of Angband, no orc or man can do that, balrogs (maiar) are greater than man or orcs... And a nazgul is af course redicoules, the nazgul are 'ring wraiths'. How can Gothmog be a nazgul if the rings of power were not even made to get him into that state... Now I can't see anything but a balrog himself to be lord of balrogs.... I mean I don't think even nazgul's are powerfull enough for that

01-13-2007, 07:03 AM	#4
Amras Oronar Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Zoetermeer Posts: 29	Oooohh... I think I wasn't very accurate in this, since I thought of the Gothmog of the first age not the third Sorry.........