Gothmog as Pat

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But anyway, you cannot deny now that MoS was somewhere around the highest ranks, if not second, then third in command. We are talking different levels of command here (and here I think you misunderstood me in the first place) - MoS was not a general, not a soldier, his rank was not military, but "civil", a "politician", indeed, a minister - while WK was a general.

I don't deny that MOS had a high rank - probably he was the highest ranking MORTAL man in Mordor. I still think he had to bow even to the least of the Nine, though. The immortal Nazgul were entirely on another level, and while any mortal was replaceable, the nazgul were not.
I agree that MOS was no soldier, and that was why I brought him into this discussion about Gothmog in the first place.

Look at the parallels:
Sauron, lord of Barad Dur and Mordor, has MOS, the Lieutenant of Barad Dur Tower - a mortal Man, civilian administrator.
Sauron's Lieutenant = Second in command, who would replace him (if he accidentally falls and breaks his neck) is the Witch-King.

The Morgul Lord, lord of Minas Morgul, probably has XXX, the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul Tower - a mortal Man, civilian administrator.
The Witch-King's Lieutenant (The Lieutenant of Morgul) who would replace him (if he accidentally falls to a woman and a halfling with a Barrow-blade)) is Gothmog.

So, you see, Gothmog, Lieutenant of Morgul (Lord), is analogous to the Witch-King, Lieutenant of Sauron, not MOS, the Lieutenant of BD Tower.

Who would replace the WK when he is killed? - another nazgul, of course.

Also look at it this way: in every allied army, composed of troops of several countries and of different races, there is always a question of leadership. For instance, who would command a reserve composed of the Haradrim, the Variags of Khand, and Orcs of Gorgoroth? The King of Harad? Or the General of Khand? Or an orc? Difficult to choose, especially if Variags and Haradrim and orcs hated each other. A Black Numenorean would be not much better, as Black or not, he would be so much alike to the hated Dunedain of Gondor.
Solution? - Appoint a Nazgul - one of the Dark God's Nine Angels - and everyone is honored and elated.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I don't deny that MOS had a high rank - probably he was the highest ranking MORTAL man in Mordor. I still think he had to bow even to the least of the Nine, though. The immortal Nazgul were entirely on another level, and while any mortal was replaceable, the nazgul were not.

Indeed and I never contradicted that. This is obvious. But the fact that MoS, or a non-Nazgul Gothmog would have to bow in front of even the least of the Nine does not have anything to do with the fact that a non-Nazgul Gothmog could be second in rank after the WK. If Sauron appointed him for that, then he simply is and the eight remaining Nazgul have different appointment, meanwhile.

Concerning the parallels you draw, with good will I find them unstable. You cannot compare Sauron and WK and put WK to one place in Barad-Dur and to one place in Minas Morgul, no, I think this is not a good way to illustrate this.

But anyway, if there was a person who was similar to MoS, only he was not mere administrator but also a soldier and an officer, then I believe the Orcs, Easterlings, Southrons and all others could obey him with no problems. This is the point about having the authority from Sauron himself - for example if a Man came there, but said "I am the Mouth of Sauron", well, that surely means something for all the allies. Of course, this is also about personal "charisma" (in WK's case, rather fear), but if someone - and no matter who he was in real - named Gothmog (for the intellectuals knowledgeable about history at least a little bit, the name itself gives the feeling of authority) had also at least some personal charisma, well, then, at the moment the Easterling, Southron etc. generals are told (before the battle by Sauron or by WK himself, probably) "this is your superior, obey him or die", no problem.

[Gordis]

You realize, Legate, that making Gothmog a mortal appointed the WK's second by Sauron, you are inventing a very powerful charismatic new character - maybe higher ranking than the MOS. Yet Tolkien told us nothing about him. He told us much about MOS, but nothing about Gothmog.
Why?
Because he was a nazgul.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

You realize, Legate, that making Gothmog a mortal appointed the WK's second by Sauron, you are inventing a very powerful charismatic new character - maybe higher ranking than the MOS.

Higher ranking? No way! He was only some silly second captain in command for one attack. If he was a Man, had he not been from Mordor, he would have lower rank than this "Black Serpent" from Harad, for example - he was a King and Gothmog was second captain. If he was a Man, who knows how long he has been in the service. MoS was there for a very long time (for a Man, resp. Black Númenorean).

Yet Tolkien told us nothing about him. He told us much about MOS, but nothing about Gothmog.
Why?
Because he was a nazgul.

No, because he was something else

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Higher ranking? No way! He was only some silly second captain in command for one attack. If he was a Man, had he not been from Mordor, he would have lower rank than this "Black Serpent" from Harad, for example - he was a King and Gothmog was second captain. If he was a Man, who knows how long he has been in the service. MoS was there for a very long time (for a Man, resp. Black Númenorean).

You have to be not just "somebody" to be specially appointed second in command to the Witch King!
As for MOS, we know exactly how long he served Sauron - 68 years to be precise.