Words and Names in Tolkien's Work

[Lalwendë]

That's the very thing I'm after Squatter! Some great speculations and explorations of the words Tolkien created, in the spirit of the way he created and explored language!

The old sense of the word thing conjours up an air of the North, of older times, and in using it for the character of Thingol I get that feeling about him, as of an ancient king, authoritarian and distant. And as one of the senses of the word thing must include Authority, it's a fitting name to choose for the character.

It's interesting that a thing was very much a gathering as well as a parliament, suggesting a bringing together of people, and that was very much the purpose of Doriath, a place where many Elves were gathered together - including Dark Elves. It's also interesting that Thingol ruled over an older established community of Elves in Beleriand, one which was there before the Noldor came back in their blaze of glory; thing is the old word for parliament, the new one, brought with the arrival of Latin and French was indeed parliament! What I am getting at there is that in our own languages thing automatically suggests something older - making a poetic link to the older community of Elves ruled over by Thingol.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

It might also be noted that a Thing was a more inclusive social event, whereas a parliament is a closed forum. I don't believe that Things were held by the Anglo-Saxons, whose main assembly was the Witan or witena gemot: 'assembly of the wise'. This was effectively the sort of group which met under the Parliament Oak: a council of magnates and churchmen. Parliament, on the other hand derives from Old French parlement: 'speaking'. Speculating wildly, Tolkien might have found it significant that after the Norman conquest, a gathering of the Wise was replaced with a talking shop.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Squatter

I don't believe that Things were held by the Anglo-Saxons, whose main assembly was the Witan or witena gemot: 'assembly of the wise'. This was effectively the sort of group which met under the Parliament Oak:

That brings up another new avenue to pursue.

witena gemot - assembly of the wise.

Which word in Tolkien's work does this suggest? To me, it's Ent Moot. I'm sure Squatter will know if gemot is the root of the word moot, I have the feeling that it is.

thing = Norse
moot = Anglo-Saxon

These are essentially similar in that they are both assemblies, the former being more of a gathering including all, the latter only for 'the wise'. That actually tallies nicely with thing corresponding to an older age (with Thingol's realm and the community he builds up) and moot to the Third Age. Of course, the Ents live close by the Rohirrim, a culture reminiscent of early Anglo-Saxon culture.

What about the word Ent meaning 'giant' in Old English?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Well, a quick glance at the OED confirms that OE mōt is the source of the modern English noun 'moot', and by association the adjectival form (e.g. 'moot point'). Gemot is just that word with the prefix ge-, which indicates that this is the verb form and that it implies 'met', i.e. 'The wise met [in conclave]'.

I think that entmoot was suggested as soon as Tolkien decided to name his new race after the giants of Old English literature. Since ent and mōt are both Old English, it seems logical to make them into the sort of compound that occurs in Old English. The spelling is modernised to 'moot' simply because he was aiming at a general audience. This term also avoids further recourse to 'council' (OF cuncile from lat. concilium: 'assembly', although this is a pre-Conquest loan-word). Before we read too much into any of this, though, there's no evidence that Thingol's name really has anything to do with gatherings or assemblies, and the terms Tolkien decides to use in the Third Age are entirely logical given the context.

Everywhere I look, ent is translated 'giant', but there seems to have been something special about Ents. Beowulf kills Grendels mother with a sword that is the work of ents; the city in The Ruin is their handiwork too, as are the Roman towns referred to in Maxims II. Aside from that, though, Goliath is se ent goliað, and the word is used to gloss Latin gigas: 'a giant'.

[the guy who be short]

Ah, so you got round to creating this thread, Lal.

As has already been said, I think we should take any similarity with existing English (or Welsh, Finnish or Latin) words with a pinch of salt. The purpose of Tolkien's invented language was to be beautiful, not to reflect English. Thingol is probably no more than the sum of his Sindarin parts.

Entmoot, meanwhile, is presented as the English equivalent of a Westron word. It makes sense that it should reflect English, or Old English, or any Inbetween English. I found the exploration of its root very interesting. So, thanks to Lal for creating the thread, and Squatter for knowing Old English!

EDIT: This thread is worth a look for name jokes.

[Thinlómien]

This is a very interesting topic. And, of course, I'd like to introduce the Finnish point of view.

While exploring the Sindarin and Quenya vocabulary you find delightingly many words that have to do with Finnish. Sindarin gannel for 'harp' is very similar to kannel (the Finnish national instrument which is related to the harp). Also tië for 'path' is almost the same as Finnish tie 'road'. I've also wondered if the stem lin- 'sing' has to do with the Finnish word lintu 'bird', but that might be a bit far-fetched.

It is also very interesting that in Quenya -atar is a masculine ending since it means 'father', but in Finnish the ending -tar (or -tär) is feminine, eg. kuningas (king) -> kuningatar (queen), tarjoilija (waiter) -> tarjoilijatar (waitress) and so on... No wonder I thought Ilúvatar to be female while first seeing his name...

[Aganzir]

There are some words and phrases I've always associated with Finnish.

The word ainu resembles a lot the Finnish word ainoa and the slang form ainut, which mean 'only, single, sole'. Since the Ainur once (except for Ilúvatar) were the only ones existing and inhabiting Arda, I find it no weird at all that they might be respectfully named The Only Ones. Of course, this may be a little bit far-fetched, and I don't think Tolkien really intended to name the Valar after such a word, but it's too easy to interpret it like that.

I also had fun when reading the first part of the Books of Lost Tales. There was a picture of the world, in the shape of a ship. It was called I Vene Kemen, 'The Shape of the Earth' or 'The Vessel of the Earth'. As kemen is the word for earth, vene should be the word for vessel. However, vene happens to be the Finnish word for boat. The same word is repeated in the name Kalavénë, the Ship of Light. Kala means a fish. As a Finn I had problems not to laugh at the magnificent name of the Sunship. I believe it might not be an accident that vene seems to mean a ship or a vessel, but kala has nothing to do with light.

Koivië-néni, the earlier form of Cuiviénen, reminds me of the Finnish words koivu (birch) and niemi (cape). It's not hard to connect koivië to koivu, but I'm not sure if I associate néni with niemi just because of a Finnish nursery tale: little children are scared by telling stories of evil Koivuniemen herra, Lord of Koivuniemi, who will come and give them a beating if they don't behave themselves.

[Gwen_Holbytla]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

The purpose of Tolkien's invented language was to be beautiful, not to reflect English.

I would attempt to gently disagree. I think along with Tolkien's goal to create the missing English myth by assembling the unknown hints of sufficiently old works, he wanted to draw deliberate connections between our language and the language in his canon. I believe he knowingly uses Old English to reflect on both his source material and the general historic groundwork he was attempting to lay. (Both senses of lay down a piece and 'to write a lay' - tehe, puns.)

The *holbytla is probably the most well known example, his coining of the word from hol, hole, and bytlian, to dwell in, and the implication that it later degenerated into hobbit.

You can also see this in Gandalf's name. Gandálfr is a name from the Völuspá, which Tolkien stole (along with the majority of the dwarf names from TH). In all his linguistical wisdom, he decided it to mean stalf-elf, as a kenning for wizard. So we see here a deliberate attempt to draw back on older words (of various languages, but including O.E.) and give (or discover) their appropriate meaning in a manner that the modern reader can decipher.

This recreation and connection in language is a reflection (or perhaps the other is a reflection upon his linguistic choice) of his attempt to recreate the English myth - in a manner similar to the Kalevala, actually.

But of course I'm not a linguist like you are, so please feel quite free to utterly destroy any points above.




*first post dance - hello, all! Greetings!*

[Lalwendë]

I found a very interesting website today which has a lot about folklore of the Orkneys and some intriguing little leads to words in Tolkein's work.

Firstly, Hobbits - in Orkney they have the Hogboon or Hogboy, who dwells in burial mounds but can be a friendly spirit - like a Hobbit in his own underground Smial you might presume. What was even more arresting to me though is that on the page where this is described, look to the info bar on the right hand side as some Orcadian place names associated with mounds are listed - one of them is Hobbister.

Then we also have the Trow and the Draugr - Trow immediately brings to mind a Troll of course, but in Orkney this is closer to the Norse Draugr, a kind of unpleasant, undead Wight which inhabits burial mounds and steals the spirits of children. It's also uncanny that Alan Lee chose Maes Howe as his model when making a sketch of the Barrow-Downs!

And finally to the most intriguing find of all, an almost forgotten Orcadian mythical being - the Kett-Hontla which is a strange combination of cat and dog and linked to the Scandinavian Ketta, a Cat Ogre who is mother to the undead Draugr, and found in Beowulf as the enigmatic Grendel's mother. There she is also referred to as the merewif or woman of the mere, and this has now got me thinking about Goldberry and her mother, the River-Woman...