Words and Names in Tolkien's Work

[the guy who be short]

Ah, so you got round to creating this thread, Lal.

As has already been said, I think we should take any similarity with existing English (or Welsh, Finnish or Latin) words with a pinch of salt. The purpose of Tolkien's invented language was to be beautiful, not to reflect English. Thingol is probably no more than the sum of his Sindarin parts.

Entmoot, meanwhile, is presented as the English equivalent of a Westron word. It makes sense that it should reflect English, or Old English, or any Inbetween English. I found the exploration of its root very interesting. So, thanks to Lal for creating the thread, and Squatter for knowing Old English!

EDIT: This thread is worth a look for name jokes.

[Thinlómien]

This is a very interesting topic. And, of course, I'd like to introduce the Finnish point of view.

While exploring the Sindarin and Quenya vocabulary you find delightingly many words that have to do with Finnish. Sindarin gannel for 'harp' is very similar to kannel (the Finnish national instrument which is related to the harp). Also tië for 'path' is almost the same as Finnish tie 'road'. I've also wondered if the stem lin- 'sing' has to do with the Finnish word lintu 'bird', but that might be a bit far-fetched.

It is also very interesting that in Quenya -atar is a masculine ending since it means 'father', but in Finnish the ending -tar (or -tär) is feminine, eg. kuningas (king) -> kuningatar (queen), tarjoilija (waiter) -> tarjoilijatar (waitress) and so on... No wonder I thought Ilúvatar to be female while first seeing his name...

[Aganzir]

There are some words and phrases I've always associated with Finnish.

The word ainu resembles a lot the Finnish word ainoa and the slang form ainut, which mean 'only, single, sole'. Since the Ainur once (except for Ilúvatar) were the only ones existing and inhabiting Arda, I find it no weird at all that they might be respectfully named The Only Ones. Of course, this may be a little bit far-fetched, and I don't think Tolkien really intended to name the Valar after such a word, but it's too easy to interpret it like that.

I also had fun when reading the first part of the Books of Lost Tales. There was a picture of the world, in the shape of a ship. It was called I Vene Kemen, 'The Shape of the Earth' or 'The Vessel of the Earth'. As kemen is the word for earth, vene should be the word for vessel. However, vene happens to be the Finnish word for boat. The same word is repeated in the name Kalavénë, the Ship of Light. Kala means a fish. As a Finn I had problems not to laugh at the magnificent name of the Sunship. I believe it might not be an accident that vene seems to mean a ship or a vessel, but kala has nothing to do with light.

Koivië-néni, the earlier form of Cuiviénen, reminds me of the Finnish words koivu (birch) and niemi (cape). It's not hard to connect koivië to koivu, but I'm not sure if I associate néni with niemi just because of a Finnish nursery tale: little children are scared by telling stories of evil Koivuniemen herra, Lord of Koivuniemi, who will come and give them a beating if they don't behave themselves.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Has anyone not pointed out that Thingol is simply the regular Sindarin formation of Quenya Sindicollo? It's analysed Thin-gol, not Thing-ol.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I pointed out above that it's Sindarin, formulated in that language on the basis of phonological and grammatical rules that were independent of the story of Thingol, and I also quoted Tolkien on the subject of reading meanings into his names. I didn't point out the meaning because I thought that would be enough. It was offered as a brief caveat lector before starting the more amusing business of dreaming up possible meanings.

All just a bit of fun really.

[Gwen_Holbytla]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

The purpose of Tolkien's invented language was to be beautiful, not to reflect English.

I would attempt to gently disagree. I think along with Tolkien's goal to create the missing English myth by assembling the unknown hints of sufficiently old works, he wanted to draw deliberate connections between our language and the language in his canon. I believe he knowingly uses Old English to reflect on both his source material and the general historic groundwork he was attempting to lay. (Both senses of lay down a piece and 'to write a lay' - tehe, puns.)

The *holbytla is probably the most well known example, his coining of the word from hol, hole, and bytlian, to dwell in, and the implication that it later degenerated into hobbit.

You can also see this in Gandalf's name. Gandálfr is a name from the Völuspá, which Tolkien stole (along with the majority of the dwarf names from TH). In all his linguistical wisdom, he decided it to mean stalf-elf, as a kenning for wizard. So we see here a deliberate attempt to draw back on older words (of various languages, but including O.E.) and give (or discover) their appropriate meaning in a manner that the modern reader can decipher.

This recreation and connection in language is a reflection (or perhaps the other is a reflection upon his linguistic choice) of his attempt to recreate the English myth - in a manner similar to the Kalevala, actually.

But of course I'm not a linguist like you are, so please feel quite free to utterly destroy any points above.




*first post dance - hello, all! Greetings!*

[Lalwendë]

I found a very interesting website today which has a lot about folklore of the Orkneys and some intriguing little leads to words in Tolkein's work.

Firstly, Hobbits - in Orkney they have the Hogboon or Hogboy, who dwells in burial mounds but can be a friendly spirit - like a Hobbit in his own underground Smial you might presume. What was even more arresting to me though is that on the page where this is described, look to the info bar on the right hand side as some Orcadian place names associated with mounds are listed - one of them is Hobbister.

Then we also have the Trow and the Draugr - Trow immediately brings to mind a Troll of course, but in Orkney this is closer to the Norse Draugr, a kind of unpleasant, undead Wight which inhabits burial mounds and steals the spirits of children. It's also uncanny that Alan Lee chose Maes Howe as his model when making a sketch of the Barrow-Downs!

And finally to the most intriguing find of all, an almost forgotten Orcadian mythical being - the Kett-Hontla which is a strange combination of cat and dog and linked to the Scandinavian Ketta, a Cat Ogre who is mother to the undead Draugr, and found in Beowulf as the enigmatic Grendel's mother. There she is also referred to as the merewif or woman of the mere, and this has now got me thinking about Goldberry and her mother, the River-Woman...

[LadyBrooke]

This is perhaps the perfect subject for language/name obsessed me. (Note that not all of this is serious)

Celeborn/Teleporno
It means, depending on what time frame in Tolkien’s writings we are looking at, “silver, tall” or “silver tree”. In a paper I once wrote for English class, the internal explanation I gave for this discrepancy was that while language is an ever evolving thing, names aren’t. Therefore an elf who’s name originally meant silver tree might find himself with a name meaning silver tall.

The thing I am more curious about is the fact that this name clearly invokes Teleperion, one of the two trees. However, this name would be largely incompatible with Tolkien’s history of Celeborn as set in LotR where Celeborn is clearly not from Valinor, if we assume that it is his original name. Therefore Celeborn must be an epesse, given to him by somebody who had seen the two trees - either Melian, Elwe, or one of the returning Noldor.

However if this is the case, what was his original father-name or mother name?

Luckily for us, Tolkien gives us in HOME two possible alternatives (note at no time were all three of these names in use at the same time) Galdaran and Arafain.

Galadaran of course reminds of Galadriel, but also of Galadhon (Celeborn’s father) and Galathil (his brother). Because of which I humbly submit the possibility that the root of the Galad part of Galadaran comes from Galadh (tree) and not Galad (light). Aran means king. On is not a word, and could be a form of either onneth (giver) or onna (born). It could also be related to onod (ent). Thil could be related to thilia (to glisten).

Therefore here are the possible meanings of Galadaran, Galadhon, and Galathil:
Galadaran - Tree King - Shouldn’t Thranduil be jealous?
Galadaran - Light King -it’s the shiny silver hair, it lights up the room. You’re the dancing king, only seventeen....(Mamma Mia!)

Galadhon - Tree Giver - conspiracy theory 100909098676 Celeborn’s father is really Yavanna’s secret lover and therefore the one responsible for all the trees in M-E
Galadhon - Tree Born - because he’s one of the Sindar, I suppose.
Galadhon - also simply the plural of galadh so trees. Historically this would fit, if the elves started with names that were just one word with no conjugating.
Galadhon - Tree, Ent - possibly related to why Treebeard appears to be such good friends with Celeborn and Galadriel. If Celeborn’s father was one of the ones to awaken the ents.

Galathil - Tree, to glisten - so glistening trees - not sure about what this could possibly mean. Unless it is related to the fact that his daughter married the King of Doriath (Dior) and became shiny with the Silmarils.

Arafain reminds me of Galadriel’s father, Arafinwe, however Arafinwe is Quenyan and not Sindarin. However in Sindarin, ara is a form of aran which as mentioned above means king. Ara is used to mean high, noble, and royal. Fain means white or cloud. This could possibly be referring to his hair, as I have heard white and silver used interchangeably. Or he could be a Royal Cloud.

That was FUN! I will most likely be back later with more musing on this oft neglected group of Sindar royalty - the family of Elmo, youngest brother of Elwe. (And no accents won’t show up on my computer.) So next will be Nimloth, Elmo, possibly after that throw in Oropher and Thranduil (who seem to be relatives of some degree.)

[Pitchwife]

LadyBrooke, thanks for reviving this thread! I can't believe I've overlooked this before - and now I hardly know where to begin...

First, I vaguely recall a passage in Letters where Tolkien explained that the name Sauron had nothing to with large prehistoric reptiles and that his imagination didn't work that way. On the other hand, his early Qenya vocabulary contained several obvious borrowings from Finnish (as Thinlómien and Aganzir have shown), and even some blatant puns (such as the root *saha- 'be hot', from which is derived Sahóra 'the South'; BoLT I p. 248). Later, as he refined his languages more and more, he seems to have expunged most of the punning elements - but that need not keep us from speculating about strange, funny or even illuminating coincidences.

witena gemot: 'assembly of the wise'

which is where Joanne Rowling's Wizengamot comes from - and that was a court of law, too, like the Icelandish þing.

atar'father' seems to be borrowed from Irish athar of the same meaning.

As for Galadhon, I think the -on element is probably just a male suffix, so the name would translate roughly as 'Tree Guy'.

If Elmo comes up next, there's St Elmo's fire (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Elmo%27s_fire). As this tends to be rather on the bluish than the reddish part of the spectrum, it would fit the el- element (meaning 'star'; -thil in Galathil also means light of a white or silver, rather than golden, colour).

To conclude with some rather humorous musings:

The word ainu resembles a lot the Finnish word ainoa and the slang form ainut, which mean 'only, single, sole'. Since the Ainur once (except for Ilúvatar) were the only ones existing and inhabiting Arda, I find it no weird at all that they might be respectfully named The Only Ones [my emphasis, P.].

Does anybody remember the new wave band of that name from the late 70s/early 80s (e.g. Another Girl Another Planet)? Now at last I know what the Music of the Ainur sounded like!

In the German version of LotR, Rivendell is translated as 'Bruchtal' (~'broken dale'); and there is a town named Bruchsal in my part of the country. Whenever I pass it on the motorway (which is about every second weekend), I find myself thinking 'next exit to Rivendell'...

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

Celeborn/Teleporno
It means, depending on what time frame in Tolkien’s writings we are looking at, “silver, tall” or “silver tree”. In a paper I once wrote for English class, the internal explanation I gave for this discrepancy was that while language is an ever evolving thing, names aren’t. Therefore an elf who’s name originally meant silver tree might find himself with a name meaning silver tall.

The thing I am more curious about is the fact that this name clearly invokes Teleperion, one of the two trees. However, this name would be largely incompatible with Tolkien’s history of Celeborn as set in LotR where Celeborn is clearly not from Valinor, if we assume that it is his original name. Therefore Celeborn must be an epesse, given to him by somebody who had seen the two trees - either Melian, Elwe, or one of the returning Noldor.

There are two divergent stories Tolkien wrote regarding Celeborn. One regarded, of course, his Sindarin roots and relation to Thingol, but the second one was that his name was Teleporno, a Telerin Elf of Valinor who meets Galadriel in the Telerin city of Alqualonde, and then the two decide to set off for Middle-earth. Although not part of the Kin-slaying, they are caught up in the Ban because they have not sought permission to leave Valinor. The Thingol relation story became part of the Silmarillion because Christopher Tolkien decided against a major rewrite regarding Galadriel's past, but it seems the Telerin version Teleporno was actually JRR Tolkien's last word on the character.

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

As for Galadhon, I think the -on element is probably just a male suffix, so the name would translate roughly as 'Tree Guy'.

If Elmo comes up next, there's St Elmo's fire (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Elmo%27s_fire). As this tends to be rather on the bluish than the reddish part of the spectrum, it would fit the el- element (meaning 'star'; -thil in Galathil also means light of a white or silver, rather than golden, colour).

That’s probably true, but given that everybody seems to have their pet conspiracy theory about something from Tolkien’s books, I figure that I deserve one too. And if the worst I can come up is that the descendants of Elwe’s youngest brother Elmo tend to be Elvish Casanovas, well.... I’m not harming anybody (Unless this is really all true, and Galadriel comes after me with a sword or something...)

I’m afraid Elmo’s going to have to wait while I do more research into St. Elmo’s fire which I had never heard of before. I will discuss Nimloth though.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

There are two divergent stories Tolkien wrote regarding Celeborn. One regarded, of course, his Sindarin roots and relation to Thingol, but the second one was that his name was Teleporno, a Telerin Elf of Valinor who meets Galadriel in the Telerin city of Alqualonde, and then the two decide to set off for Middle-earth. Although not part of the Kin-slaying, they are caught up in the Ban because they have not sought permission to leave Valinor. The Thingol relation story became part of the Silmarillion because Christopher Tolkien decided against a major rewrite regarding Galadriel's past, but it seems the Telerin version Teleporno was actually JRR Tolkien's last word on the character.

Thank you for bringing this up. I never intended to give off the impression that this is the only story Tolkien laid out for Celeborn. I simply can’t accept it, for myself, not because I believe the Silmarilion is always right, but because I can’t make it fit with LotR without doing somersaults and a jig with my logic. Every indication we are given in LotR as to Celeborn’s heritage makes him out to be a Silvan or Sindar and plus if he was born in Valinor than he would by the genealogies given there be Galadriel’s first cousin. And that’s just icky to the elves. As stated in one of the HOME books I don’t have, and therefore am just going off my notes about the HOME books for. Of course, if Tolkien had lived he might very well have rewritten LotR to fit with this new backstory for Galadriel, though I don’t think it’s half as interesting as the one we have.

Plus if we keep moving Elwe’s relatives to Valinor, pretty soon it’s just going to be him in the woods all by himself.

And we might have had Teleporno as his name in the books and my mommy wouldn’t have let me read them.

Now for Nimloth! Fascinating woman, married to Dior ‘the most beautiful of all Eru’s children’ gave birth to Eludred, Elurin, and Elwing, and Celeborn’s niece if we accept that Galathil is his brother.

Nim comes from nimp meaning either pale, white or small and frail. Loth means flower, inflorescence, and a head of small flowers. Inflorescence means the complete flower head of a plant, including stems, stalks, bracts, and flowers or the process of flowering. It’s most recognizable use is of course Lothlorien the realm of Celeborn and Galadriel.

Therefor here are the possible meanings of Nimloth:

Pale flower
White flower
Small and frail flower
Pale flowering
Small and frail flowering

From this the image I get of Nimloth is a small, frail, pale woman with silver hair. However it is debatable to me whether her frailty would have been internal or external. I have to say that being married to Dior it seems like she must have had some internal strength or he wouldn’t have noticed her. Why would she have been small though, considering that so many of her relatives are well relatively tall? If, and this is completely baseless speculation on my part, she had been born while everybody is searching the woods for Elwe then it may have been that they experienced severe hardships finding food and such, or if she was born after the Girdle fell, than it may be the same.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

There are two divergent stories Tolkien wrote regarding Celeborn.

More than two, regarding Celeborn's clan anyway; but Tolkien decided to publish that Celeborn was Sindarin in any case: once in The Return of the King, and again (in the next decade) in The Road Goes Ever On.

One regarded, of course, his Sindarin roots and relation to Thingol, but the second one was that his name was Teleporno, a Telerin Elf of Valinor who meets Galadriel in the Telerin city of Alqualonde, and then the two decide to set off for Middle-earth. Although not part of the Kin-slaying, they are caught up in the Ban because they have not sought permission to leave Valinor.

They had no part in the Rebellion in this late adumbrated version (Tolkien arguably forgot he had already published that Galadriel was a rebel Noldo, and so much so that she was banned at the end of the First Age), however Galadriel was given a 'part' in the Kinslaying in some measure, despite that the fight is against Feanor. Galadriel seemingly had no part in the 1950s when she was first introduced into the texts concerning the Elder Days.

Nimloth 'White Blossom' (S. index).