Lord Melkor Rightful Master of the Fates of Arda

[narfforc]

What has always intrigued me about The Second Music is that when all The Children sing before Eru will this include the corrupted forms that had life, will Eru cleanse and renew them also, will they see the Light of The Secret Fire and be at one with all things that have come from the divine spark, or will they suffer the fate of their Master who twisted them into hateful beings that had little or no control over their creation or fate, for are they not also victims. In bodily form an elf may return, what form would an orc be if allowed to return for the Second Music.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Davem: You answered yourself in your post Whatever Eru would create, if it had free will, it could've rebelled, so the only other option was not to create anything at all. Only to what you say about the possibility of him having to act, we don't know, but I think it is not logical, since it makes Eru a not-free being (contradiction with that he's omnipotent).

Originally Posted by narfforc

or will they suffer the fate of their Master who twisted them into hateful beings that had little or no control over their creation or fate, for are they not also victims. In bodily form an elf may return, what form would an orc be if allowed to return for the Second Music.

Well, that depends. I don't know if there is anywhere stated what would happen to Orcs&co. at the End of Arda. Also, if you are speaking only of appearance here, I think we don't know anything from Tolkien's works about if the Children will have any bodily form any longer, or at least, they would obviously not have the same they had in life (since that one might be burned, quartered or whatever). So the difference between an Elf (or Man)& an Orc would be only in their "spirit", if you like. I don't know much about this "Arda renewal" stuff - better ask someone else - but if there would be a "new" Arda, I might think that it would be up to the Children what form they'd choose to take. But I'm only speculating, this is a mystery for me as much as for you. The only thing for sure is probably that the form will be "good".

Oh, and I would like to point one funny thing I noticed. Please see what the thread came to now, and look at the first words of the opening post of the thread:

Originally Posted by Neithan Tol Turambar

I would like to start a thread to glorify Lord Melkor...

And now, please, compare what you saw here, with this:

Originally Posted by Eru Ilúvatar

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Davem: You answered yourself in your post Whatever Eru would create, if it had free will, it could've rebelled, so the only other option was not to create anything at all. Only to what you say about the possibility of him having to act, we don't know, but I think it is not logical, since it makes Eru a not-free being (contradiction with that he's omnipotent).

But then aren't we left with Eru being ultimately responsible for the suffering of his creatures - they only really suffer because he creates them knowing what their fate will be? Its not even the case that Eru knew Hurin might suffer at the hands of Morgoth, & that Turin might commit incest with his sister - Eru knew for an inevitable fact that those things would happen (along with everything else) & still spoke the 'Ea!'

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by davem

But then aren't we left with Eru being ultimately responsible for the suffering of his creatures - they only really suffer because he creates them knowing what their fate will be? Its not even the case that Eru knew Hurin might suffer at the hands of Morgoth, & that Turin might commit incest with his sister - Eru knew for an inevitable fact that those things would happen (along with everything else) & still spoke the 'Ea!'

Well, in that matter, of course. But he is not responsible for anything more than giving them the option to do what they did, the evil was their "invention". The responsibility and choice was all theirs, the only thing they can say to Eru is: "It would be better if you haven't created me at all." So, the question you set here now is not about Eru, it is the Hamletish question. If you take the example of Húrin, then Eru could have chosen not to speak "Eä!", as you said earlier, but then there would be no Creation. And if he chose to speak it, then there will be the suffering Húrin.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Eru gave them the choices and they chose the ones that he didn't like. He didn't want to cripple their free will, but he still didn't want them to take those paths of darkness.

Eru is not responsible for Morgoth being evil. Morgoth took that path himself. All was well in the beginning until Morgoth went down a dark road. In that case, Morgoth is to blame for his actions, not his father.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

Eru gave them the choices and they chose the ones that he didn't like. He didn't want to cripple their free will, but he still didn't want them to take those paths of darkness.

Well, they didn't all choose the ones he didn't like - that's the point - they all had the choice; in fact they all had to have the choice if the Music was to be played aright in the end - & more importantly if they were to be able to choose to play it right. The 'paths of darkness' must exist if the Children are to be truly free. They must make a free choice not to take them. Yet Eru creates them knowing that some will take those paths. He doesn't make them take the 'paths' but he knows that some will take them (because he knows everything). So he gives them life knowing some of them will suffer (as a result of their own free choice of course). Was he right to do that? If a couple decide to have a child knowing that child will inherit a painful, crippling disease are they free of all responsibility for that child's suffering?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by davem

Yet Eru creates them knowing that some will take those paths. He doesn't make them take the 'paths' but he knows that some will take them (because he knows everything). So he gives them life knowing some of them will suffer (as a result of their own free choice of course). Was he right to do that? If a couple decide to have a child knowing that child will inherit a painful, crippling disease are they free of all responsibility for that child's suffering?

It's miraculous you come to the same thoughts as I, davem - when I finished my last post and quitted the Downs for a while, I thought "oh, I could have used an example, like of parents deciding to have a child even though they know it will suffer". As you said, Eru (in difference to human parents) knew some of them would suffer - well, possibly all of them, but only in certain moments of their life, some more, some less. But I think you cannot say that it would be a child who would only suffer. If you take Húrin, he was certainly happy at some moments of his life, before his capture by Morgoth, or even Túrin, the very personification of ill fate, he was happy with his friends, with Finduilas, even with Nienor... Another thing: If I reversed the question, it is fair not to create someone who would be happy? This might sound pretty selfish (from the point of view of the happier ones, though even they obviously suffer in their life, at least a little). I think that actually, the answer to your question depends on whether there would be any people who would say, at the end of their life (or in some after-death state where they'd have the possibility to ponder all their life without momentary emotions), "this was not worth living at all". Or, if even those who suffered, would say "no, my life was good, although it was mostly suffering". This is probably unanswerable question.