Lord Melkor Rightful Master of the Fates of Arda

[davem]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Davem: You answered yourself in your post Whatever Eru would create, if it had free will, it could've rebelled, so the only other option was not to create anything at all. Only to what you say about the possibility of him having to act, we don't know, but I think it is not logical, since it makes Eru a not-free being (contradiction with that he's omnipotent).

But then aren't we left with Eru being ultimately responsible for the suffering of his creatures - they only really suffer because he creates them knowing what their fate will be? Its not even the case that Eru knew Hurin might suffer at the hands of Morgoth, & that Turin might commit incest with his sister - Eru knew for an inevitable fact that those things would happen (along with everything else) & still spoke the 'Ea!'

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by davem

But then aren't we left with Eru being ultimately responsible for the suffering of his creatures - they only really suffer because he creates them knowing what their fate will be? Its not even the case that Eru knew Hurin might suffer at the hands of Morgoth, & that Turin might commit incest with his sister - Eru knew for an inevitable fact that those things would happen (along with everything else) & still spoke the 'Ea!'

Well, in that matter, of course. But he is not responsible for anything more than giving them the option to do what they did, the evil was their "invention". The responsibility and choice was all theirs, the only thing they can say to Eru is: "It would be better if you haven't created me at all." So, the question you set here now is not about Eru, it is the Hamletish question. If you take the example of Húrin, then Eru could have chosen not to speak "Eä!", as you said earlier, but then there would be no Creation. And if he chose to speak it, then there will be the suffering Húrin.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Eru gave them the choices and they chose the ones that he didn't like. He didn't want to cripple their free will, but he still didn't want them to take those paths of darkness.

Eru is not responsible for Morgoth being evil. Morgoth took that path himself. All was well in the beginning until Morgoth went down a dark road. In that case, Morgoth is to blame for his actions, not his father.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

Eru gave them the choices and they chose the ones that he didn't like. He didn't want to cripple their free will, but he still didn't want them to take those paths of darkness.

Well, they didn't all choose the ones he didn't like - that's the point - they all had the choice; in fact they all had to have the choice if the Music was to be played aright in the end - & more importantly if they were to be able to choose to play it right. The 'paths of darkness' must exist if the Children are to be truly free. They must make a free choice not to take them. Yet Eru creates them knowing that some will take those paths. He doesn't make them take the 'paths' but he knows that some will take them (because he knows everything). So he gives them life knowing some of them will suffer (as a result of their own free choice of course). Was he right to do that? If a couple decide to have a child knowing that child will inherit a painful, crippling disease are they free of all responsibility for that child's suffering?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by davem

Yet Eru creates them knowing that some will take those paths. He doesn't make them take the 'paths' but he knows that some will take them (because he knows everything). So he gives them life knowing some of them will suffer (as a result of their own free choice of course). Was he right to do that? If a couple decide to have a child knowing that child will inherit a painful, crippling disease are they free of all responsibility for that child's suffering?

It's miraculous you come to the same thoughts as I, davem - when I finished my last post and quitted the Downs for a while, I thought "oh, I could have used an example, like of parents deciding to have a child even though they know it will suffer". As you said, Eru (in difference to human parents) knew some of them would suffer - well, possibly all of them, but only in certain moments of their life, some more, some less. But I think you cannot say that it would be a child who would only suffer. If you take Húrin, he was certainly happy at some moments of his life, before his capture by Morgoth, or even Túrin, the very personification of ill fate, he was happy with his friends, with Finduilas, even with Nienor... Another thing: If I reversed the question, it is fair not to create someone who would be happy? This might sound pretty selfish (from the point of view of the happier ones, though even they obviously suffer in their life, at least a little). I think that actually, the answer to your question depends on whether there would be any people who would say, at the end of their life (or in some after-death state where they'd have the possibility to ponder all their life without momentary emotions), "this was not worth living at all". Or, if even those who suffered, would say "no, my life was good, although it was mostly suffering". This is probably unanswerable question.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I think that actually, the answer to your question depends on whether there would be any people who would say, at the end of their life (or in some after-death state where they'd have the possibility to ponder all their life without momentary emotions), "this was not worth living at all". Or, if even those who suffered, would say "no, my life was good, although it was mostly suffering". This is probably unanswerable question.

Yes, but....

Eru puts them in that position without asking them, or giving them any choice at all in the matter. They may well, in the end, look back & be grateful for the 'good' they have known, even feel that the good so far outweighed the evil that they accept the evil as the necessary price. However, Eru did not get their consent before he created them. He placed them in a world where they would have to choose good or evil, & suffer either way. They are innocent & if they are deserving of anything at all they deserve to know good, not evil & pain - yet that is what they get: because Eru puts them in a situation where they will inevitably know suffering. Let's say that in the end they all say to Eru 'Thank you. It was worth the pain.' Does that absolve Eru absolutely for putting them in a place where they would suffer? Is not his creation of them, & his need for them to choose to sing his Music aright at least a little bit selfish? After all, they could not desire existence before they existed, so Eru made the choice for them, & that choice involved their suffering.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Eru doesn't put them in that position. They happen to wind up in those positions. If Eru micromanaged the whole world every day like some people think, he'd be crippling the free will of his people.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

(ad davem's first post after my last one)
This is partially a paradox, because we are speaking of some state where you should ask someone who does not exist yet if he wanted to exist. To ask someone whether he wants to exist, you have to first bring him to existence, ergo, this is unsolvable, since by bringing him to existence you already chose instead of him.
Moving to the line of speculation, however, we might assume that, Eru being omniscient, he might know that all the beings will finally thank him and will reply that they wanted to exist. This is only a speculation, though, but it occured to me as one possibility of a solution. Otherwise, as I said above, the question is probably still unsolvable because of the paradox - if we don't happen to think of anything else.

Legate of Amon Lanc QOUTE: ". . .Eru/God . . ."
That is my secret intention. Can I get more specific than that?
"Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"
If you asked me to build you a motorcycle, and I asked you what style you were looking for, and you responded, "Well I'll take what is standard, because I do not know exactly what motorcycle engineers have in mind." Then afforded me the budget, and then went on a journey, returning after it's completion.
Seeing the completed motorcycle you realize that there are many many things about it that do not appeal to you, and then, unlike before, you can see exactly what changes that you would have made to bring the bike into harmony with the new ideal vision that has dawned on your mind. Now you know what you want. That is what you have been asking of me, so that you may reject it, and then see clearly how to conform it to your own ideal.
This I have refused to do. I say to you Thenamir, I will not do this thing. I will not build this motorcycle for you. But now that I know the desire of your heart, I will force this thing upon you, and if you try to go on your journey, I shall hinder you when I may, I shall follow you and waylay you upon the road, and detain you.
You shall have your motorcycle, but Lo! I will try to force you to build it yourself, though you do not know the way. I shall show the parts I had in mind and that I have prepared for you, I shall show them each to you singly, and though apart from the others you do not know the purpose or meaning of each, and cannot comprehend how they are connected, still I will lay them out before you, in perfect reverse engineered order so that all you have to do is follow the trail of parts, applying them to the growing whole. When you are finished it shall be that same motorcycle that I had designed from the beginning, only now, ye shall love it. Ye shall love it more dearly and in your eyes it shall be perfect.