Is THIS how you imagined the vampires?

[Bêthberry]

What I find fascinating is that Tolkien gave to Luthien this identity. Did he read Bram Stoker's Dracula? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dracula_%28novel%29 Did he know of the relationship between Lucy and the vampire and all the subversive sexuality of the Victorian genre?

What went through his mind as he gave these characters of the vampire and the werewolf to Luthien and Beren? And then had Luthien and Beren chistled onto the gravestones of himself and Edith?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

What I find fascinating is that Tolkien gave to Luthien this identity. Did he read Bram Stoker's Dracula? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dracula_%28novel%29 Did he know of the relationship between Lucy and the vampire and all the subversive sexuality of the Victorian genre?

What went through his mind as he gave these characters of the vampire and the werewolf to Luthien and Beren? And then had Luthien and Beren chistled onto the gravestones of himself and Edith?

He almost certainly knew the Bram Stoker story and will likely have read it. He took a holiday in Whitby as a young man and already by that time (in fact as soon as the novel came out - it sold pretty well) Whitby was trading on the Dracula story. His drawing of Whitby Harbour was made directly outside the old lending library where Stoker did much of his research and writing - at that time it was still a library I believe - now it is The Magpie, mecca for lovers of Fish and Chips and the spot Tolkien stood on is the Fish Market. Since Stoker's story came out, Whitby and Dracula have gone hand-in-hand.

Plus there are Tolkien's tastes, which as they included H Rider Haggard I don't doubt would include something of a similar bent as Dracula was very much part of that genre of Boys' Own adventures. As such, I don't think the undercurrents of sex and disease were as apparent to early readers as they are today, if at all! Even if it would be exciting to think Tolkien had drawn something of this dark side into his work

Now as to the form of Vampires in Tolkien's work, I think that the 'bat form' which Luthien takes is just that, i.e. a large flying bat. I don't think of demonic figures, just of a 'corrupted natural form' rather like Shelob is at heart, in the form of just a giant spider. That's good as that's also the classic notion of a vampire when he/she is flitting about.

The interesting part is what the vampire looks like when not in 'bat form'. Did Thuringwethil merely have 'folded wings' when at rest? Did she look more like a woman? Would she have been able to hide her vampire nature?

One of the scary things about vampires in popular culture of course is how they can blend in with other people - did Tolkien take that kind of template? Maybe, maybe not. What really is interesting is that he did not describe his Vampire - and really, the notion of a Vampire is one of deep-seated, dark, psychological terror. Fear of the darkness in us and in other human beings. Fear of the predator. Fear of the unknown side of human nature. I think Tolkien was playing off that in not deliberately describing his Vampire, just as he was shady and shadowy in describing, or not describing so many of his other nightmare creations. It's up to you to imagine them, if you dare...

[sallkid]

"...in The First Age Of Sun in the Wars of Beleriand it is told how, in this winged form made large and armed with talons and steel, Vampire spirits came into the service of Melkor, the dark enemy.

In the Quest of the Silmaril Thuringwethil the "woman of secret shadow", was a mighty Vampire and was the chief messenger to travel between Angband and Tol - in - Gauroth" - Characters from Tolkien - David Day

The idea of the "winged form" suggests they are bat like. But Thuringwethil is definately described as a woman, suggesting a human or humanoid form...

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by sallkid

"...in The First Age Of Sun in the Wars of Beleriand it is told how, in this winged form made large and armed with talons and steel, Vampire spirits came into the service of Melkor, the dark enemy.

In the Quest of the Silmaril Thuringwethil the "woman of secret shadow", was a mighty Vampire and was the chief messenger to travel between Angband and Tol - in - Gauroth" - Characters from Tolkien - David Day

Hmmm...David Day. I'd like to see the actual Tolkien quote that states "Vampire spirits came into the service of Melkor"; likewise, I'd like to read a direct Tolkien quote that states specifically "Thuringwethil....was a mighty Vampire". This is the general problem with David Day and his overactive imagination: one never knows where David Day begins and Tolkien has left off.

[sallkid]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hmmm...David Day. I'd like to see the actual Tolkien quote that states "Vampire spirits came into the service of Melkor"; likewise, I'd like to read a direct Tolkien quote that states specifically "Thuringwethil....was a mighty Vampire". This is the general problem with David Day and his overactive imagination: one never knows where David Day begins and Tolkien has left off.

Quite so, but seeing as Luthien wore the skin of Thuringwethil to take the form of a vampire i'd say it's accurate.

[Lalwendë]

I remembered I'd started a thread on this topic some 10 months or so ago and here it is: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...=thuringwethil

Now there I quoted all it said in the Sil which was:

He turned aside therefore at Sauron's isle, as they ran northward again, and he took thence the ghastly wolf-hame of Draugluin, and the bat-fell of Thuringwethil. She was the messenger of Sauron, and was wont to fly in vampire's form to Angband; and her great fingered wings were barbed at each joint's end with an iron claw. Clad in these dreadful garments Huan and Luthien ran through Taur-nu-Fuin, and all things fled before them.
Beren seeing their approach was dismayed; and he wondered, for he had heard the voice of Tinuviel, and he thought it now a phantom for his ensnaring.

and

By the counsel of Huan and the arts of Luthien he was arrayed now in the name of Draugluin, and she in the winged fell of Thuringwethil. Beren became in all things like a werewolf to look upon, save that in his eyes there shone a spirit grim indeed but clean; and horror was in his glance as he saw upon his flank a bat-like creature clinging with creased wings. Then howling under the moon he leaped down the hill, and the bat wheeled and flittered above him.

I still stand by what I said in that thread, that there is no reason why Tolkien's vampires should not take on the familiar vampire form (and especially so given that I found out a little more when in Whitby as mentioned above). Now what does interest me anew is that this thing which Luthien puts on is called a 'fell' and a 'fell' is a skin - a 'fellmonger' was someone who prepared skins for the tanner.

So did Thuringwethil put this 'fell' on when in Vampire form or was she killed and skinned? The text suggests the former as she was 'in vampires form', though if it was the latter, who skinned her? Eyuw. Hardly bears thinking about (though I will, later, and have nightmares no doubt...) - was it Huan who killed and skinned her if this was the case? Was she a Maia? And how would you skin a Maia anyway? Tolkien does call them 'dreadful garments' after all...which brings to mind that scene in Rob Roy where Liam Neeson hides inside a rotting cow or Silence of the Lambs

Had a look in the Lay of Leithian but it doesn't really give us any more info than what we have.

It's also interesting how Tolkien stuck to the resolutely Real World terminology of Vampire. I mean, could you better describe a Vampire in any word other than what they always called?

And it also brings me to the other current thread about Beorn...another 'skin changer'...was he really donning some grisly Bear skin?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by sallkid

Quite so, but seeing as Luthien wore the skin of Thuringwethil to take the form of a vampire i'd say it's accurate.

Not exactly, she donned the bat-fell of Thuringwethil --

fell (fĕl)
n.
1. The hide of an animal; a pelt.
2. A thin membrane directly beneath the hide.

She appeared as a vampire bat (albeit a large one), not a vampire...an important distinction, as Tolkien also referred to 'vampire bats' in The Hobbit. I cannot find any reference to Day's assertion that "Vampire spirits came into the service of Melkor". Thuringwethil could assume the shape of a vampire bat, which does not necessarily mean she was indeed a vampire. We can't expect Morgoth's minions to fly about like overgrown canaries or laden swallows, it would be unseemly, and certainly not the 'look' the Dark Lord was seeking.

And Lalwende, interestingly enough, the word 'hame' in Draugluin's wolf 'hame' does not correspond directly to 'skin' or 'pelt'; in nearly every dictionary I've looked at, a hame is as follows:

hame(hm)
n.
One of the two curved wooden or metal pieces of a harness that fits around the neck of a draft animal and to which the traces are attached.

Only when one goes further back to a corresponding word in Old Norse hamr, base *hem-, 'to cover', do we get anything even remotely close to 'skin'. However, I found an obscure website referring to Odinic Rites, here....

http://odinic-rite.org/Hama.htm

that makes reference to the following: "From the word 'Hama,' old Norse also derives the word 'Hamr,' which means 'spirit skin'- a skin that maintains the soul's energies and stops them from being dispersed when travelling from the body."

Also, "Háma may be derived from the Old English word hám meaning "village, hamlet" or it may come from the word hama meaning 'covering, garment'."

Interesting stuff.

[Bêthberry]

Morthoron, that's a fascinating phrase, spirit skin. It of course provides yet another example of the philological underpinings of Tolkien's work.

All this discussion of skin and hides reminds me that Whitby has another claim to fame: in the late 16th C one Thomas Chaloner defeated the Vatican international monopoly on alum, an element used in the curing leather, when he recognised the Vatican stone as the same as the stone on his estate in Yorkshire. His alum industry apparently sustantially undercut the costs demanded by the Vatican. Now there's a Yorkshireman for you!

Lal, your comments about Whitby's importance to Tolkien and Bram Stoker are fascinating. Do you have an online link to Tolkien's drawing of Whitby Harbour? Can it be found in J R R Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator? Perhaps someone who owns that tome could scan the picture and reproduce it here?

However, for all that fascinating history about Stoker and Whitby, Whitby is important for another subject very close to Tolkien's heart: Whitby Abby under St. Hilde was a renown centre for Anglo Saxon learning. In fact, it was a double monastery, for both men and women, and St. Hilde is held instrumental in the Cædmon story of his inspiration and famous hymn, said by some to be the first English poem. So although Tolkien may have picked up on the local lore about vampires, his main interest in the town could have been its Anglo Saxon heritage rather than research into vampires.

Still, it is intriguing to think of something in common between vampires and the elves: both are nearly immortal creatures for whom longevity breeds great ennui.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

We can't expect Morgoth's minions to fly about like overgrown canaries or laden swallows, it would be unseemly, and certainly not the 'look' the Dark Lord was seeking..

Of course, we do find

"Thus Sauron yielded himself, and Lúthien took the mastery of the isle and all that was there; and Huan released him. And immediately he took the form of a vampire, great as a dark cloud across the moon, and he fled, dripping blood from his throat upon the trees, and came to Taur-nu-Fuin, and dwelt there, filling it with horror."

Which seems to imply Sauron flying ('a cloud across the moon' 'dripping blood from his throat upon the trees').

Or am I misunderstanding your point?

[Mattius]

It reminds me of Gremlins 2 when one of the Gremlins drinks the formula to make him into a vampire/gargoyle creature. I've been looking for a picture but I think it is too obscure a reference!