Is THIS how you imagined the vampires?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by sallkid

"...in The First Age Of Sun in the Wars of Beleriand it is told how, in this winged form made large and armed with talons and steel, Vampire spirits came into the service of Melkor, the dark enemy.

In the Quest of the Silmaril Thuringwethil the "woman of secret shadow", was a mighty Vampire and was the chief messenger to travel between Angband and Tol - in - Gauroth" - Characters from Tolkien - David Day

Hmmm...David Day. I'd like to see the actual Tolkien quote that states "Vampire spirits came into the service of Melkor"; likewise, I'd like to read a direct Tolkien quote that states specifically "Thuringwethil....was a mighty Vampire". This is the general problem with David Day and his overactive imagination: one never knows where David Day begins and Tolkien has left off.

[sallkid]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hmmm...David Day. I'd like to see the actual Tolkien quote that states "Vampire spirits came into the service of Melkor"; likewise, I'd like to read a direct Tolkien quote that states specifically "Thuringwethil....was a mighty Vampire". This is the general problem with David Day and his overactive imagination: one never knows where David Day begins and Tolkien has left off.

Quite so, but seeing as Luthien wore the skin of Thuringwethil to take the form of a vampire i'd say it's accurate.

[Lalwendë]

I remembered I'd started a thread on this topic some 10 months or so ago and here it is: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...=thuringwethil

Now there I quoted all it said in the Sil which was:

He turned aside therefore at Sauron's isle, as they ran northward again, and he took thence the ghastly wolf-hame of Draugluin, and the bat-fell of Thuringwethil. She was the messenger of Sauron, and was wont to fly in vampire's form to Angband; and her great fingered wings were barbed at each joint's end with an iron claw. Clad in these dreadful garments Huan and Luthien ran through Taur-nu-Fuin, and all things fled before them.
Beren seeing their approach was dismayed; and he wondered, for he had heard the voice of Tinuviel, and he thought it now a phantom for his ensnaring.

and

By the counsel of Huan and the arts of Luthien he was arrayed now in the name of Draugluin, and she in the winged fell of Thuringwethil. Beren became in all things like a werewolf to look upon, save that in his eyes there shone a spirit grim indeed but clean; and horror was in his glance as he saw upon his flank a bat-like creature clinging with creased wings. Then howling under the moon he leaped down the hill, and the bat wheeled and flittered above him.

I still stand by what I said in that thread, that there is no reason why Tolkien's vampires should not take on the familiar vampire form (and especially so given that I found out a little more when in Whitby as mentioned above). Now what does interest me anew is that this thing which Luthien puts on is called a 'fell' and a 'fell' is a skin - a 'fellmonger' was someone who prepared skins for the tanner.

So did Thuringwethil put this 'fell' on when in Vampire form or was she killed and skinned? The text suggests the former as she was 'in vampires form', though if it was the latter, who skinned her? Eyuw. Hardly bears thinking about (though I will, later, and have nightmares no doubt...) - was it Huan who killed and skinned her if this was the case? Was she a Maia? And how would you skin a Maia anyway? Tolkien does call them 'dreadful garments' after all...which brings to mind that scene in Rob Roy where Liam Neeson hides inside a rotting cow or Silence of the Lambs

Had a look in the Lay of Leithian but it doesn't really give us any more info than what we have.

It's also interesting how Tolkien stuck to the resolutely Real World terminology of Vampire. I mean, could you better describe a Vampire in any word other than what they always called?

And it also brings me to the other current thread about Beorn...another 'skin changer'...was he really donning some grisly Bear skin?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by sallkid

Quite so, but seeing as Luthien wore the skin of Thuringwethil to take the form of a vampire i'd say it's accurate.

Not exactly, she donned the bat-fell of Thuringwethil --

fell (fĕl)
n.
1. The hide of an animal; a pelt.
2. A thin membrane directly beneath the hide.

She appeared as a vampire bat (albeit a large one), not a vampire...an important distinction, as Tolkien also referred to 'vampire bats' in The Hobbit. I cannot find any reference to Day's assertion that "Vampire spirits came into the service of Melkor". Thuringwethil could assume the shape of a vampire bat, which does not necessarily mean she was indeed a vampire. We can't expect Morgoth's minions to fly about like overgrown canaries or laden swallows, it would be unseemly, and certainly not the 'look' the Dark Lord was seeking.

And Lalwende, interestingly enough, the word 'hame' in Draugluin's wolf 'hame' does not correspond directly to 'skin' or 'pelt'; in nearly every dictionary I've looked at, a hame is as follows:

hame(hm)
n.
One of the two curved wooden or metal pieces of a harness that fits around the neck of a draft animal and to which the traces are attached.

Only when one goes further back to a corresponding word in Old Norse hamr, base *hem-, 'to cover', do we get anything even remotely close to 'skin'. However, I found an obscure website referring to Odinic Rites, here....

http://odinic-rite.org/Hama.htm

that makes reference to the following: "From the word 'Hama,' old Norse also derives the word 'Hamr,' which means 'spirit skin'- a skin that maintains the soul's energies and stops them from being dispersed when travelling from the body."

Also, "Háma may be derived from the Old English word hám meaning "village, hamlet" or it may come from the word hama meaning 'covering, garment'."

Interesting stuff.

[Bêthberry]

Morthoron, that's a fascinating phrase, spirit skin. It of course provides yet another example of the philological underpinings of Tolkien's work.

All this discussion of skin and hides reminds me that Whitby has another claim to fame: in the late 16th C one Thomas Chaloner defeated the Vatican international monopoly on alum, an element used in the curing leather, when he recognised the Vatican stone as the same as the stone on his estate in Yorkshire. His alum industry apparently sustantially undercut the costs demanded by the Vatican. Now there's a Yorkshireman for you!

Lal, your comments about Whitby's importance to Tolkien and Bram Stoker are fascinating. Do you have an online link to Tolkien's drawing of Whitby Harbour? Can it be found in J R R Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator? Perhaps someone who owns that tome could scan the picture and reproduce it here?

However, for all that fascinating history about Stoker and Whitby, Whitby is important for another subject very close to Tolkien's heart: Whitby Abby under St. Hilde was a renown centre for Anglo Saxon learning. In fact, it was a double monastery, for both men and women, and St. Hilde is held instrumental in the Cædmon story of his inspiration and famous hymn, said by some to be the first English poem. So although Tolkien may have picked up on the local lore about vampires, his main interest in the town could have been its Anglo Saxon heritage rather than research into vampires.

Still, it is intriguing to think of something in common between vampires and the elves: both are nearly immortal creatures for whom longevity breeds great ennui.

[Lalwendë]

Now as it happens I have a link to that pic here as I tried to get close to where Tolkien stood, but the modern fish market stands in the way: http://lalwendeboggart.livejournal.com/104238.html*

It is also in Artist & Illustrator, together with a sketch he did of the Abbey - a view which is identical today, despite the Abbey being shelled in WWI. Now Tolkien did take a lot of holidays on the Yorkshire coast so I wonder how fond he was of it (I know he was not all that fond of Filey, but Whitby is about 1,000% nicer!) in its own right? Did the Caedmon story stir him up? Together with Captain Cook and Dracula, Caedmon is another figure you hear a lot about in the town - there is a fab cross dedicated to scenes of his life right at the top of the 199 steps.

There is of course the Middle-earth Tavern which has a display of Tolkien posters and whatnot - but I do not know and can't find out if it was named for Tolkien or Caedmon! They do a nice chilled pint of Theakston's Old Peculier and it's almost opposite another odd ancient thing in Whitby, the Penny Hedge, planted in the harbour each Whitsun!

The place fair sucks you in with it's embarrassingly dense levels of history (and beer and fish and handmade chocolates etc ) - I can't see how Tolkien could have failed to be inspired by the tales - Stoker himself took the Demeter from a real shipwreck and the black dog from the local legend of the scary Barguest.



*Wot's happened to the texty/weblink doo-dah? I liked that!

[davem]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

We can't expect Morgoth's minions to fly about like overgrown canaries or laden swallows, it would be unseemly, and certainly not the 'look' the Dark Lord was seeking..

Of course, we do find

"Thus Sauron yielded himself, and Lúthien took the mastery of the isle and all that was there; and Huan released him. And immediately he took the form of a vampire, great as a dark cloud across the moon, and he fled, dripping blood from his throat upon the trees, and came to Taur-nu-Fuin, and dwelt there, filling it with horror."

Which seems to imply Sauron flying ('a cloud across the moon' 'dripping blood from his throat upon the trees').

Or am I misunderstanding your point?

[Raynor]

There is an interesting bit in BoLT II:

Originally Posted by The fall of Gondolin

Then arose Thorndor, King of Eagles, and he loved not Melko, for Melko had caught many of his kindred and chained them against sharp rocks to squeeze from them the magic words whereby he might learn to fly (for he dreamed of contending even against Manwe in the air); and when they would not tell he cut off their wings and sought to fashion therefrom a mighty pair for his use, but it availed not.

It is interesting that Melkor is here depicted as not being able to fly (nor do we see in other versions any mentioning to the contrary); if this were true, it would imply that neither could Sauron, who, if anything, is a lesser being than he.

Also, if Sauron was able to fly, I believe it is likely he would have done this other times too, but there is no record of it.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

It is interesting that Melkor is here depicted as not being able to fly (nor do we see in other versions any mentioning to the contrary); if this were true, it would imply that neither could Sauron, who, if anything, is a lesser being than he.

I take it this would mean that Ancalagon & Smaug couldn't fly either, as they were lesser beings than Morgoth?

A vampire shape with pinions vast
Screeching leaped from the ground & passed
Its dark blood dripping on the trees (Lay of Leithian)

Or perhaps Sauron just screamed, jumped into the air & then ran off through the forest flapping his wings....

[sallkid]

If there were any "true" vampires in tolkien i strongly doubt that they'd look like this.
It brings to mind more the image of the Balrog, or one of the Nameless (Fell) Beasts.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

I take it this would mean that Ancalagon & Smaug couldn't fly either, as they were lesser beings than Morgoth?

Seeing that Melkor is described time and again as not being able to make new sentient beings, the race of dragons is likely a corruption of a race already able to fly. In that sense, these "proto-dragons" had this gift from the design of Eru (I am not aware that any vala was able to make even non-sentient beings).

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by davem

Of course, we do find....

....Which seems to imply Sauron flying ('a cloud across the moon' 'dripping blood from his throat upon the trees').

Or am I misunderstanding your point?

I mean, by definition, when Tolkien uses the term 'vampire', he is referring to a bat or bat-like entity, not vampire in the sense of the walking dead Nosferatu variety vampire.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I mean, by definition, when Tolkien uses the term 'vampire', he is referring to a bat or bat-like entity, not vampire in the sense of the walking dead Nosferatu variety vampire.

I would agree with you that Tolkien employs the cultural dislike of bats as another form of creature which inspires unease and dread in humans (elves and dwarves too?), similar to the creepy, crawly spiders.

Tolkien seems to have split up what you call the walking dead Nosferatu variety vampire. We have, for instance, the Dead who are cursed by Isildur and who walk the Paths of the Dead until Aragorn releases them from their oath (and Isildur's curse). Granted they are not the blood-sucking variety, but they are a form of dead who walk the earth in unhappy thralldom.

Then we have the similarity I noted above of the ennui of longevity. The aesthete is part of the vampire tradition (well, some of the tradition; it is so various) and elves certainly have aesthetic sensibilities, although perhaps without the sense of uncontrolled appetite. If we take Tolkien's comment that LotR is about death, I find it intriguing that he would consider the effects of longevity and create a race such as the elves rather than Stoker's version. Was Tolkien writing against type?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I would agree with you that Tolkien employs the cultural dislike of bats as another form of creature which inspires unease and dread in humans (elves and dwarves too?), similar to the creepy, crawly spiders.

Tolkien seems to have split up what you call the walking dead Nosferatu variety vampire. We have, for instance, the Dead who are cursed by Isildur and who walk the Paths of the Dead until Aragorn releases them from their oath (and Isildur's curse). Granted they are not the blood-sucking variety, but they are a form of dead who walk the earth in unhappy thralldom.

Then we have the similarity I noted above of the ennui of longevity. The aesthete is part of the vampire tradition (well, some of the tradition; it is so various) and elves certainly have aesthetic sensibilities, although perhaps without the sense of uncontrolled appetite. If we take Tolkien's comment that LotR is about death, I find it intriguing that he would consider the effects of longevity and create a race such as the elves rather than Stoker's version. Was Tolkien writing against type?

Very interesting analogies. Considering the vampire was never truly part of the English tradition, and the actual word 'vampire' was imported from Europe in the 18th century, and vampire stories did not come into vogue until the 19th century (very few allusions to vampirism are part of British folklore prior to the 18th century, William of Newbury's 12th century description being an exception), perhaps Tolkien's inclusion of such creatures was indeed a subconscious nod to Bram Stoker's immensely popular novel (a connection which Lalwende has offered with site specific references).

There is nothing particularly Anglo-Saxon or English (or Norse, for that matter) to merit such an inclusion; whereas wights and other grave ghouls and disembodied spirits are part of the English folklore tradition. It could be said that even werewolves were more an aspect of English folklore prior to the 17th century (wolves having been eradicated by the late 1600's), but even then, aside from Gervase of Tilbury, there is scant mention; however the use of the OE 'warg' meaning 'outlaw' (from Old Norse vargr = wolf and early Germanic wargaz = criminal, killer), one can see where Tolkien got that inspiration (I was always intrigued by the monstrous Fenris/Fenrir the Wolf in Norse mythology).

Besides, as I mentioned, what other flying creature but the bat can be considered loathsome enough to inspire fear in Morgoth's enemies? Bats are just plain creepy, sort of rats with wings.

As far as Elves, those that populated Norse myths were certainly of a divine or semi-divine nature. I had always assumed Tolkien took the aspect of Elvish immortality from Norse legend.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I mean, by definition, when Tolkien uses the term 'vampire', he is referring to a bat or bat-like entity, not vampire in the sense of the walking dead Nosferatu variety vampire.

Sorry. When you said

We can't expect Morgoth's minions to fly about like overgrown canaries or laden swallows, it would be unseemly, and certainly not the 'look' the Dark Lord was seeking.

I thought you meant We can't expect Morgoth's minions to fly about. Obviously We can't expect Morgoth's minions to fly about is your way of saying "We can't expect Morgoth's minions to include "the walking dead Nosferatu variety vampire",

As I've shown, some of Morgoth's minions (like Sauron) did fly about (Sauron having the ability to assume human, wolf & bat form - Dracula or what?). I don't think its stated whether Thuringwethil was 'undead' or not, so one can only speculate.





I can only put this down to the old 'two nations divided by a single language' thing.

[Lalwendë]

Sorry my mind is just racing away now with notions and wild imaginings about vampires and Sauron and so on...

I think firstly that in Tolkien's case the image of the vampire to his generation was not necessarily similar to ours. We see them as seductive creatures, even attractive, whereas in his day Dracula was part of the Boys' own adventure genre and the figure of the Vampire would just have been a thrilling enemy or baddie to be defeated. Yet a very impressive one nevertheless. And Morthoron is right that Vampires are very alien to Western European culture - that very 'foreign-ness' I think makes them that bit more exotic and frightening to many readers.

Now there's nothing to say that Tolkien had to stick to Western European images in creating his work, he was free to do as he pleased of course - and he did. And he was a master of Gothic (as were many Catholics) and why not bring in the most Uber-Goth of all Gothic icons, the Vampire?

What does interest me in the Vampire/Elf comparison is that not all Elves are these good, perfect people! There is the information that Tolkien gave us about Elves who lingered in Middle-earth eventually seeing their hroa burn away and becoming sinister, shadowy inhabitants of trees and rocks. There are greedy, bloodthirsty Elves like Feanor and his kin became. There are seductive, Byronic Dark Elves like Eol.

Now another thing which interests me is that Sauron seems to have been able to take 'Vampire form'. Does this mean that it was simply that - a kind of costume available to Maiar or does it mean it already existed as a form? Or does it mean that if one took the form of a Bat then it would mean one would not be a bat but would be a kind of corrupted bat - i.e. a Vampire? And by extension, was a werewolf a specifically corrupted form of Wolf? I'm leaning to that as Tolkien in the one phrase uses both 'bat-like' and 'bat':

By the counsel of Huan and the arts of Luthien he was arrayed now in the name of Draugluin, and she in the winged fell of Thuringwethil. Beren became in all things like a werewolf to look upon, save that in his eyes there shone a spirit grim indeed but clean; and horror was in his glance as he saw upon his flank a bat-like creature clinging with creased wings. Then howling under the moon he leaped down the hill, and the bat wheeled and flittered above him.

So it is metaphorically like a bat and also literally a bat.

Bit like the Balrog's wings eh?

I think left there deliberately like that to suggest a mercurial nature that cannot quite be defined - in the case of Vampire, Werewolf and Balrog alike.

And I still incline towards the Vampire being able to take bat and humanoid form as why else would Thuringwethil's name mean 'woman of shadow'?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by davem

Sorry. When you said

I thought you meant We can't expect Morgoth's minions to fly about. Obviously We can't expect Morgoth's minions to fly about is your way of saying "We can't expect Morgoth's minions to include "the walking dead Nosferatu variety vampire"....

No, what I meant was Morgoth's minions couldn't bloody well go flying about looking like great pink canaries; they would necessarily have to go flying about in the form of a bat or some other loathsome apparition, in keeping with Tolkien's code of evil equaling dark/black/sinister.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

And I still incline towards the Vampire being able to take bat and humanoid form as why else would Thuringwethil's name mean 'woman of shadow'?

*shrugs* Again the enigmatic Professor Tolkien strikes. Sauron could take the form of a bat or a wolf, but I dont' think that suggests he was either a vampire or a wolf. I believe this is one of those thousands of instances in Middle-earth labeled 'open to conjecture'.

P.S. On further examination, one finds the trolls who fought Aragorn's forces at the Morannon bit the necks of their adversaries. This is perhaps more of a predatory means of killing as seen in other real world species (felines, for instance).