Iceland in Tolkien's Work?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Was the hobbit tradition not only so at birthdays?

Because I think it was a more general thing back around the year 1000. It did not have to be a birthday party or even a party, it would always be the host that treated the guests. In sertain cases the guest might bring something as well I supposse.

Anyways, the quote made me think of Morwen. . . she seems to share this view. When Thingol sents messengers to her with gifts, she feels obliged to give them gifts as well.

I cannot remember if the gifts was for Thingol or the messengers. . . .that could be important.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Anyways, the quote made me think of Morwen. . . she seems to share this view. When Thingol sents messengers to her with gifts, she feels obliged to give them gifts as well.

I cannot remember if the gifts was for Thingol or the messengers. . . .that could be important.

Thus began the sojourn of Túrin in Doriath. With him remained for a while Gethron and Grithnir his guardians, though they yearned to return again to their lady in Dor-lómin. Then age and sickness came upon Grithnir, and he stayed beside Túrin until he died; but Gethron departed, and Thingol sent with him an escort to guide him and guard him, and they brought words from Thingol to Morwen. They came at last to Húrin's house, and when Morwen learned that Túrin was received with honour in the halls of Thingol her grief was lightened; and the Elves brought also rich gifts from Melian, and a message bidding her return with Thingol's folk to Doriath. For Melian was wise and foresighted, and she hoped thus to avert the evil that was prepared in the thought of Morgoth. But Morwen would not depart from her house, for her heart was yet unchanged and her pride still high; moreover Niënor was a babe in arms. Therefore she dismissed the Elves of Doriath with her thanks, and gave them in gift the last small things of gold that remained to her, concealing her poverty; and she bade them take back to Thingol the Helm of Hador.

So the Elven messengers bring gifts from Melian & Morwen reciprocates with gifts to them. The giving of the Helm is a bit ambiguous - is she giving it as a gift to Thingol, or giving it to Turin via Thingol? (We also have Turin's giving of his Knife to Sador, but that's perhaps a side issue).

If she was giving the Helm to Turin then we have another echo of the Sagas, in that a Mother would often give a weapon to her son, along with 'encouragement' to avenge a dishonour to the family. This happens in Grettir's saga - & another interesting point is that Grettir's death is brought about by his attempting to cut up a (cursed in Grettir's case) piece of driftwood for firewood - the axe he is using slips & he cuts open his own leg (as happens with Sador) which cripples him & leaves him unable to defend himself against his enemies' attack.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I've always felt as though Tolkien's greatest 'debt' to the Sagas was more their "feel" than any specific event or reference. Time and again in the Sagas you have somebody who does something that sets off a feud and no matter how hard everyone tries to avert disaster and tragedy it's hopeless and everyone involved suffers mightily. The Sagas do not participate in the Modernist idea of history as advance/improvement...quite the reverse. And that's pretty much the story of Middle Earth in a nutshell. Things generally go from light to dark, from high to low, vengeance and blood feuds wipe out whole peoples and cause misery without justice... Which is not to say that the Sagas or Middle-earth are depressing places--there is fellowship, honour, heroism but mostly there is convivialty, hospitality and, most importantly, gatherings of friends and family. The world is dark, but life need not be so.

There may be elements of particular reference between the Sagas and Middle-earth (the portrayal of the trolls in TH is clearly inspired by Icelandic trolls; the 'governmental' structure of the Shire is pretty much precisely the kind of loose 'democracy' practised in Old Iceland) but on the whole I think the real comparison is to be made betwen the views of heroism--what Tolkien called "naked will and courage in the face of inevitable defeat". That's what got Frodo and Sam to Mount Doom, and that's what inspired Aragorn to lead his armies to the Black Gate.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

....but on the whole I think the real comparison is to be made betwen the views of heroism--what Tolkien called "naked will and courage in the face of inevitable defeat". That's what got Frodo and Sam to Mount Doom, and that's what inspired Aragorn to lead his armies to the Black Gate.

Yes, but such valor is not specifically Icelandic in nature; one could just as easily infer the same from Tolkien's Anglo-Saxon studies. One only has to read The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son to get that same sense of valor and heroic chivalry (however misguided in this case in point). That sense of selflessness in the face of defeat and death is evident in nearly every literary piece of that time (even the coeval Frankish 'Song of Roland' echoes that bravado).

[davem]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Yes, but such valor is not specifically Icelandic in nature; one could just as easily infer the same from Tolkien's Anglo-Saxon studies. One only has to read The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son to get that same sense of valor and heroic chivalry (however misguided in this case in point). That sense of selflessness in the face of defeat and death is evident in nearly every literary piece of that time (even the coeval Frankish 'Song of Roland' echoes that bravado).

Well, no, its not unique to the Icelandic concept of valour. One would not expect it to be, given that both the Anglo-Saxons & the Icelanders were Germanic peoples, & their attitudes reflect a cultural norm. However, being that this thread is discussing (possible) Icelandic influences on Tolkien, I don't see that pointing out that another society held the same view adds to the discussion. The fact that the Anglo-Saxons held to the 'Northern theory of courage' doesn't negate the fact that the Icelanders also did. Both Icelanders & Anglo-Saxons held to the concept of weregild. Men in both societies wore tunics.

The real point is that we have nothing like the Sagas from Anglo-Saxon England, no extensive literature which depicts everyday life in Dark Age/Medieval England. The Children of Hurin is the closest thing we have in style & structure to an Icelandic Saga from Tolkien, & there is nothing in the whole of Anglo-Saxon literature that is anything like it - as far as I'm aware. The work seems almost purely Icelandic is style, mood & structure - getting away from the Shire or Numenor options admittedly. Surely we have to look to Icelandic Saga literature as a major influence on Tolkien's creation - something which is usually ignored in favour of seeking Biblical or Northern mythological influences.

[Lalaith]

Actually I think the "feel" of CoH is closer to the Eddic poems (the various Lays of Gudrun, the Lay of Atli, etc) than to the sagas. The date of the poems is disputed, as they are older than the date they were fixed to paper, but they are certainly at least three centuries older.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Actually I think the "feel" of CoH is closer to the Eddic poems (the various Lays of Gudrun, the Lay of Atli, etc) than to the sagas. The date of the poems is disputed, as they are older than the date they were fixed to paper, but they are certainly at least three centuries older.

I suppose it depends on whether we're talking 'feel' or structure & style. Of course, as Hookbill points out, Tolkien drew on many sources, but if one is familiar with the Sagas, one can't help noting the basic structure of the story reflects the typical structure of a saga.

CoH starts with Turin's ancestry, grandfather & father, setting out the place of his family in the wider society. Then we have the hero's birth, his childhood, early deeds, his outlawry (again a popular topic for saga writers), his heroic feats, the suffering & destruction he brings on friends & kin, & ending with his death. Even his mother is typical of Saga mothers. Its a 'classic' saga in its structure. Of course, Kullervo was a major influence, as were the Eddas, Beowulf, the Volsungasaga et al.

The real point, I think, is that the influence of Saga literature on Tolkien's work has not been sufficiently explored. Tolkien was a member of a group, The Coalbiters, who gathered together to read the Sagas in the original Icelandic, & his love of Saga literature & the way it influenced his work should be taken seriously. Pointing out other influences is to sidetrack the thread. Of course those influences are there, but in order to discover the specific influence of the Sagas on Tolkien's work we have to put them on one side.

The question is, were the Sagas a major influence on Tolkien's Legendarium or not, & if so, how & in what way? To respond to that question with 'Well, there were lots of influences.' misses the point of the question. So, I don't think it is germaine to point up similarities with other cultures/myths, because all that does is lead us to the dead end of 'Tolkien was influenced by lots of things'. This is about how 'X' may or may not have influenced Tolkien, not aboout pointing out that he was influenced by A, B, C, D, etc as well.

Also, I take Lalaith's point re the Eddas, but I'm not sure (personal feeling of course) that they were as great an influence on CoH as on some of his other works.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by davem

Well, no, its not unique to the Icelandic concept of valour. One would not expect it to be, given that both the Anglo-Saxons & the Icelanders were Germanic peoples, & their attitudes reflect a cultural norm. However, being that this thread is discussing (possible) Icelandic influences on Tolkien, I don't see that pointing out that another society held the same view adds to the discussion. The fact that the Anglo-Saxons held to the 'Northern theory of courage' doesn't negate the fact that the Icelanders also did. Both Icelanders & Anglo-Saxons held to the concept of weregild. Men in both societies wore tunics.

Being that the 'thread is discussing (possible) Icelandic influences on Tolkien', isn't pointing out when something is not necessarily exclusive to Icelandic nature, but present in Anglo-Saxon literature as well, germane to the discussion, particularly in regards to an Anglo-Saxon scholar such as Tolkien?

Originally Posted by davem

The real point is that we have nothing like the Sagas from Anglo-Saxon England, no extensive literature which depicts everyday life in Dark Age/Medieval England. The Children of Hurin is the closest thing we have in style & structure to an Icelandic Saga from Tolkien, & there is nothing in the whole of Anglo-Saxon literature that is anything like it - as far as I'm aware.

Certainly, CoH bears a great debt to the Sagas, but more so the Eddas, as Lalaith pointed out. But then again, there are certain similarities to the Finnish Kalevala as well (Kullervo seducing a maiden, only to find out it is his sister, and then later killing himself, for instance). Kullervo is an anti-hero much in the mold of Turin.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Certainly, CoH bears a great debt to the Sagas, but more the the Eddas, as Lalaith pointed out. But then again, there are certain similarities to the Finnish Kalevala as well (Kullervo seducing a maiden, only to find out it is his sister, and then later killing himself, for instance). Kullervo is an anti-hero much in the mold of Turin.

The similarities with the stories of Kullervo from Kalevala and Turín surely go deeper than this but some people tend to overestimate the similarities as well.

We probably should not forget that Tolkien was an eclectic - or should we say an Eclectic - picking this and that thing from here and there to make a mythology of his liking. So there may be paths and motives from Icelandic sagas and others from Finnish epic - which kind of nicely is a 19th century production of a person who had the romantic ideas of Hölderlin in his backpack as well. And sharing things from other Germanic lore and even the old Greeks and Romas as well?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

I've always felt as though Tolkien's greatest 'debt' to the Sagas was more their "feel" than any specific event or reference. Time and again in the Sagas you have somebody who does something that sets off a feud and no matter how hard everyone tries to avert disaster and tragedy it's hopeless and everyone involved suffers mightily. The Sagas do not participate in the Modernist idea of history as advance/improvement...quite the reverse. And that's pretty much the story of Middle Earth in a nutshell. Things generally go from light to dark, from high to low, vengeance and blood feuds wipe out whole peoples and cause misery without justice... Which is not to say that the Sagas or Middle-earth are depressing places--there is fellowship, honour, heroism but mostly there is convivialty, hospitality and, most importantly, gatherings of friends and family. The world is dark, but life need not be so.

There may be elements of particular reference between the Sagas and Middle-earth (the portrayal of the trolls in TH is clearly inspired by Icelandic trolls; the 'governmental' structure of the Shire is pretty much precisely the kind of loose 'democracy' practised in Old Iceland) but on the whole I think the real comparison is to be made betwen the views of heroism--what Tolkien called "naked will and courage in the face of inevitable defeat". That's what got Frodo and Sam to Mount Doom, and that's what inspired Aragorn to lead his armies to the Black Gate.

Nice one Fordim. That's the greatest similarity of all - the style. A lot of people struggle with the Sil as the style is so at odds with the usual style you expect of a novel, yes even of Rings, but once you pick up an Icelandic Saga you have a moment of revelation and realise just what Tolkien was attempting to do in terms of style. Have to admit I was dumbfounded to realise this at long last! Far from being 'biblical', the Sil is just like one of the Sagas! Long lists of people, stark language and imagery, thinly but effectively drawn scenes of slaughter and of horror.

One of my mates once said he found The Sil 'glacial', and I told him that Tolkien was trying to achieve a 'cool Northern air' - and this is where, I think, he found it. I was rambling on not so long ago about how the Kinslaying made me feel odd, took me back to my ancestors almost - and then again when I picked up a Saga for the first time this feeling completely grabbed me by the guts.

It's a rich mine I think.

And that's what this thread is about - looking at Icelandic Sagas, Iceland and Tolkien's work.