Morgoth and Doriath

[Macalaure]

I think it's interesting that Morgoth did wage war against Doriath, as we see from the many battles over Dimbar, but still never dared to attack the Girdle.

We know that the Girdle could only be breached by someone of greater power than Melian. This rules dragons out and leaves Sauron and the Balrogs.

Beyond lay the wilderness of Dungortheb, where the sorcery of Sauron and the power of Melian came together, and horror and madness walked.
~ Of Beren and Lúthien

This gives me the impression that Melian's power and Sauron's sorcery is approximately equally strong. So, even though we would consider Sauron to be more powerful overall, it is doubtful to me whether he would have been able to break through the Girdle with his sorcery. It's not overall power which counts, but specific powers. Maybe Sauron would have been able to, maybe not, but I don't think it would be certain. We also know how patient Morgoth is and how calculating with his resources (except Orcs). He wouldn't have risked his most mighty servant in an attack of questionable success. Gothmog and the balrogs are lesser Maiar than Sauron (esp. in sorcery), so an attack of them would be at least as much of a risk.

In the end, Morgoth would probably have had to break the Girdle by himself, but he was extremely reluctant to even leave Angband. I don't think he would have dared to, unless Doriath was the only realm left in all Beleriand. Morgoth basically restricted the power of Doriath to Doriath itself, to the effect that he didn't have to fear it anymore. This way he was able to delay the problem to whenever he felt the time had come to deal with it.


A minor tangent:

Originally Posted by Rune

I only remember two ever passing the gridle and that was Beren which Melian predicted would do so and then Carcharoth, but I don't think that Carcharot would have been able to do so with out the Silmaril.

You're right, but it was not the power of the Silmaril that enabled him.

Nothing hindered him, and the might of Melian upon the borders of the land stayed him not; for fate drove him, and the power of the Silmaril that he bore to his torment.
~Of Beren and Lúthien

It was not the Silmaril that increased Carcharoths power, even though it made him much more frightful than before, but because he carried the Silmaril it became his fate to enter Doriath.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

We know that the Girdle could only be breached by someone of greater power than Melian. This rules dragons out

Hm, is there any specific reason for that?

Originally Posted by Macalaure

You're right, but it was not the power of the Silmaril that enabled him.

It was not the Silmaril that increased Carcharoths power, even though it made him much more frightful than before, but because he carried the Silmaril it became his fate to enter Doriath.

In my opinion, this quote cuts both ways. It can even be interpreted that fate simply "directed" Carcaroth's direction/intention, while it was only the silmaril that increased his power.

[Rikae]

Nothing hindered him, and the might of Melian upon the borders of the land stayed him not; for fate drove him, and the power of the Silmaril that he bore to his torment.
~Of Beren and Lúthien

Well, the use of "and" implies that both fate and the Silmaril were necessary, if I read this correctly...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I never said that the silmaril increased his powers. . .it increased his furry no doubt.

What I ment was: Iif Carcharoth decided to go for a walk on a sunny afternoon, enjoying the lovely weather and the birds singing and he by chance eneded up at Doriath . . ..then I do not think that he could enter.

There was only one time he could enter and that was when he had the silmaril in his stomache. . . .I belive that the fate quote referes as much to the fate of the silmaril and Beren as it does to Cacharot, or rather that these cannot be seperated.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

What I ment was: Iif Carcharoth decided to go for a walk on a sunny afternoon, enjoying the lovely weather and the birds singing and he by chance eneded up at Doriath . . ..then I do not think that he could enter.

Fair enough, Rune, but what about the opposite situation? If I, for instance, happened to randomly swallow a Silmaril, and (evil as I am), went running randomly in the direction of Doriath looking for water to relieve the burning, but with no particular fate on me that I should enter that realm, would I manage to get through the girdle?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Well, the use of "and" implies that both fate and the Silmaril were necessary, if I read this correctly...

I don't see how the text implies that the power of the silmaril alone would not have sufficed. Several causes mentioned do not imply that one of them wouldn't be enough on its own.

Originally Posted by Rikae

If I, for instance, happened to randomly swallow a Silmaril, and (evil as I am), went running randomly in the direction of Doriath looking for water to relieve the burning, but with no particular fate on me that I should enter that realm, would I manage to get through the girdle?

Maybe. But Melkor did not put his power upon you, neither are you related to Draugluin, nor does the fire and anguish of hell burn in you .

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I don't see how the text implies that the power of the silmaril alone would not have sufficed. Several causes mentioned do not imply that one of them wouldn't be enough on its own.

Then why would JRR feel it necessary to even mention fate, if the Silmaril alone were sufficient?

Originally Posted by Raynor

nor does the fire and anguish of hell burn in you .

Mac might disagree...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Fair enough, Rune, but what about the opposite situation? If I, for instance, happened to randomly swallow a Silmaril, and (evil as I am), went running randomly in the direction of Doriath looking for water to relieve the burning, but with no particular fate on me that I should enter that realm, would I manage to get through the girdle?

But you wouldn't. . .there would be no reason for Tolkien to put you in his works.

Anyways unless you are willing to bite of Berens hand and enter a mortal combat with Huan, then no :P

Actually for me the main thing is that the faith of Arda rests in the silmarils and are bound to their faith, which means that when the fell beast Rikae swallows the silmaril she becomes a part of that faith. . . .if she was not already in advance.

[Rikae]

IF you mean the fate of Arda, you may just be on to something there, Rune.
However, does this mean that Morgoth, having the Silmarils, could just stroll into Doriath any time he wanted? There is more to it that a simplistic "get a Silmaril, be more powerful than anybody" dynamic at play, I think. Maybe even a sense of the Silmarils themselves having, in a way, a will of their own, as the one ring does? Or not so much a will, but a destiny?

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Hm, is there any specific reason for that?

Well, to be honest, I couldn't think of any quote from the text which explicitly states that. It's just hard to imagine that a dragon is more powerful than a Maia. At least not one of Melian's dimension.

In my opinion, this quote cuts both ways. It can even be interpreted that fate simply "directed" Carcaroth's direction/intention, while it was only the silmaril that increased his power.

You might be right. I just noticed that, when Beren enters Doriath, Tolkien uses the word "doom" while here he uses "fate".
But this would mean, that by carrying a Silmaril alone a person obtains more power than Melian has. I mean, sure, the Silmarils contain the light of the two trees and were hallowed by Varda, but nevertheless they remain the work of only an Elf.
I think Rikae is right by pointing out the "and".

(edit: cross-posted like crazy)

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Then why would JRR feel it necessary to even mention fate, if the Silmaril alone were sufficient?

Because it was a factor that occurred too in this particular instance.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

It's just hard to imagine that a dragon is more powerful than a Maia. At least not one of Melian's dimension.

Well, I guess all it's left to imagination alone in this case.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

But this would mean, that by carrying a Silmaril alone a person obtains more power than Melian has.

Well, I would say this would be similar to the one ring: it increases the power according to the measure of the possessor.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

(edit: cross-posted like crazy)

Yeah, it looks like it's BD happy hour now

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Because it was a factor that occurred too in this particular instance.

Fair enough. Do you have an example of a case where there was no fate or doom involved?

[Raynor]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence ; judging otherwise would be an argument from ignorance. My answer is no.