Morgoth and Doriath

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

What I ment was: Iif Carcharoth decided to go for a walk on a sunny afternoon, enjoying the lovely weather and the birds singing and he by chance eneded up at Doriath . . ..then I do not think that he could enter.

Fair enough, Rune, but what about the opposite situation? If I, for instance, happened to randomly swallow a Silmaril, and (evil as I am), went running randomly in the direction of Doriath looking for water to relieve the burning, but with no particular fate on me that I should enter that realm, would I manage to get through the girdle?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Well, the use of "and" implies that both fate and the Silmaril were necessary, if I read this correctly...

I don't see how the text implies that the power of the silmaril alone would not have sufficed. Several causes mentioned do not imply that one of them wouldn't be enough on its own.

Originally Posted by Rikae

If I, for instance, happened to randomly swallow a Silmaril, and (evil as I am), went running randomly in the direction of Doriath looking for water to relieve the burning, but with no particular fate on me that I should enter that realm, would I manage to get through the girdle?

Maybe. But Melkor did not put his power upon you, neither are you related to Draugluin, nor does the fire and anguish of hell burn in you .

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I don't see how the text implies that the power of the silmaril alone would not have sufficed. Several causes mentioned do not imply that one of them wouldn't be enough on its own.

Then why would JRR feel it necessary to even mention fate, if the Silmaril alone were sufficient?

Originally Posted by Raynor

nor does the fire and anguish of hell burn in you .

Mac might disagree...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Fair enough, Rune, but what about the opposite situation? If I, for instance, happened to randomly swallow a Silmaril, and (evil as I am), went running randomly in the direction of Doriath looking for water to relieve the burning, but with no particular fate on me that I should enter that realm, would I manage to get through the girdle?

But you wouldn't. . .there would be no reason for Tolkien to put you in his works.

Anyways unless you are willing to bite of Berens hand and enter a mortal combat with Huan, then no :P

Actually for me the main thing is that the faith of Arda rests in the silmarils and are bound to their faith, which means that when the fell beast Rikae swallows the silmaril she becomes a part of that faith. . . .if she was not already in advance.

[Rikae]

IF you mean the fate of Arda, you may just be on to something there, Rune.
However, does this mean that Morgoth, having the Silmarils, could just stroll into Doriath any time he wanted? There is more to it that a simplistic "get a Silmaril, be more powerful than anybody" dynamic at play, I think. Maybe even a sense of the Silmarils themselves having, in a way, a will of their own, as the one ring does? Or not so much a will, but a destiny?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I would also have issues with seeing Melkor as intently driving forward the disputes between the elves, or with the dwarves.

Oh, I disagree. I think the whole elaborate hounding of Hurin's family was only indirectly about them: Morgoth's purpose was to twist Hurin and reforge him into a weapon against Doriath, one who could bring his malice inside the Girdle. Remember, Melkor strove thoughout to show Thingol in particular in the worst possible light. He bloody well knew where Hurin ultimately would go when he got out, a proud, bitter old man bent on vengeance. Revealing Gondolin's location and destroying Brethil were side benefits. Doriath was the target.

[Raynor]

My point was that Melkor did not and could not have prepared the strife between the elves to the level of detail that was mentioned; he sowed seeds of evil, which later developed rather independently. As far as the strife between elves and dwarves, again, I see no evidence that Morgoth planned this through Hurin. Hurin was an instrument in furthering Morgoth's hatred for Men and Elves; the fact that the Nauglamir that he recovered proved later to be a cause of Doriath's demise was not and could not have been planned by Morgoth. The best that Hurin achieved inside the girdle, in accordance with what Morgoth planned, was to insult the king. But even that failed rather miserably, since the king restrained himself and Melian freed Hurin.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Raynor

As far as the strife between elves and dwarves, again, I see no evidence that Morgoth planned this through Hurin. Hurin was an instrument in furthering Morgoth's hatred for Men and Elves; the fact that the Nauglamir that he recovered proved later to be a cause of Doriath's demise was not and could not have been planned by Morgoth. .

Although the actual means of Doriath's fall were not planned by Morgoth, I think WCH is right in saying that Doriath was Morgoth's main target when he released Hurin.

Originally Posted by The Silmarillion

In all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done, for he hated them and feared them.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Although the actual means of Doriath's fall were not planned by Morgoth, I think WCH is right in saying that Doriath was Morgoth's main target when he released Hurin.

I am aware of that, and it doesn't constitute an object of contention . I previously referred to the same paragraph, where I argued that Morgoth's expectations with Hurin was not the destruction of Doriath, but something far less ambitious:

But he lied, for his purpose was that Hurin should still further his hatred for Elves and Men, ere he died.

[Morwen]

But surely, if Doriath was indeed his primary target, his intent wasn't merely to annoy or insult Thingol and Melian, who he "hated and feared". I would argue that his intent was to create an opportunity for the later destruction of Doriath...

I don't know that it can be said that Doriath is his primary target. After all, Hurin was captured alived in the hope that he would provide Morgoth with info on the whereabouts of Gondolin and Hurin shortly after his release unwittingly provides Morgoth with a general idea of its location. I don't see how his entry into Doriath and even his initial insults to its rulers can be part of some "Morgothian" plan for its destruction. Unless Morgoth was somehow using Hurin as vehicle to get Nauglamir to Doriath, knowing that its coming would start a chain of events leading to that Kingdom's destruction. But I don't recall this ever being mentioned.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Rikae

IF you mean the fate of Arda, you may just be on to something there, Rune.
However, does this mean that Morgoth, having the Silmarils, could just stroll into Doriath any time he wanted? There is more to it that a simplistic "get a Silmaril, be more powerful than anybody" dynamic at play, I think. Maybe even a sense of the Silmarils themselves having, in a way, a will of their own, as the one ring does? Or not so much a will, but a destiny?

Yes he could, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the Silmarils. . .he was clearly more powerful than Melain and therefor she would have been able to hinter him.

I have never said that that you get more powerful by getting a Silmaril. . .you are making this up.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Yes he could, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the Silmarils. . .he was clearly more powerful than Melain and therefor she would have been able to hinter him.

Then the question remains - why didn't he?

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I have never said that that you get more powerful by getting a Silmaril. . .you are making this up.

I never said you said that.
Raynor said:

I don't see how the text implies that the power of the silmaril alone would not have sufficed.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

very simple because Morgoth alone of the valar knew fear! He might have been mighty but Fingolfin alone wounded him, he would not have been able to take Doriath unharmed.

about Rainor's quote: Well, it does not say that the silmaril transfers the power to the holder. . .as I see it Carcharoth was an instrument used for bringing the silmaril to Doriath (and some other stuff). The reason Carcharoth can enter is not that he has become more powerful than Melian, but because the Faith of the Silmaril is greater than her enchantment.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The best that Hurin achieved inside the girdle, in accordance with what Morgoth planned, was to insult the king. But even that failed rather miserably, since the king restrained himself and Melian freed Hurin.

But that 'version' of events was Christopher's invention; in any event the doubly-cursed Treasure of Nargothrond is what precipitates the strife with the Dwarves.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

very simple because Morgoth alone of the valar knew fear! He might have been mighty but Fingolfin alone wounded him, he would not have been able to take Doriath unharmed.

Yes; it also occurs to me: doesn't Tolkien quite rarely make the outcome of the opposition of two beings depend on raw power? He seems more interested in scenarios where the apparently 'weaker' character wins through stealth, wisdom, luck, courage etc.
Not, of course, that Melian "won", but Doriath was successfully protected until she ceased to do so; and I agree with your post above - Morgoth wouldn't have ignored Doriath simply because it was no threat to him.
I also had the impression Doriath was the target he intended to use Hurin against; though the ultimate course of events would not have been one he foresaw, that doesn't change his intent; and the fact that he would have to use such elaborate methods speaks in favor of Melian being very powerful indeed.