Faith and Choices

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Note I'm not saying that is what she is or that is what she represents, but you can see that in her character and portrayal, especially if reading the work set against the basis of war and what it does to people. And even if Tolkien did feed that idea in (and how would we know, that's just something I can see in her - and he doesn't deconstruct everything! ) it doesn't preclude him feeling regret - either as a Captain might regret having to be harsh on the keen young hero or a taken man might regret having somehow attracted the love of a woman he could not/would not reciprocate.

I would think Eowyn was indeed starstruck (a device used more in the movie than the book, but still evident). I think your analogy of the hero-worship a naive young soldier has for a great captain is apt. A moth drawn to the flame perhaps. The undeniable aura of so formidable a Dunedain warrior must have been very attractive to Eowyn, from both a feminine perspective, and, moreso in Eowyn's case, of a caged shield-maiden who so desparately wished to emulate such a renowned soldier.

[Bêthberry]

Perhaps a close look at the particular passage where Aragorn first sees Eowyn would be helpful.

Originally Posted by The King of the Golden Hall

'Go, Eowyn, sister-daughter!' said the old king. 'The time for fear is past.'

The woman turned and went slowly into the house. As she passed the doors she turned and looked back. Grave and thoughtful was her glance, as she looked on on the king with cool pity in her eyes. Very fair was her face, and her long hair was like a river of gold. Slender and tall she was in her white robe girt with silver; but strong she seemed and stern as steel, a daughter of kings. Thus Aragorn for the first time in the full light of day beheld Eowyn, Lady of Rohan, and thought her fair, fair and cold, like a morning of pale spring that is not yet come to womanhood. And she now was suddenly aware of him: tall heir of kings, wise with many winters, greycloaked, hiding a power that she yet felt. For a moment still as stone she stood, then turning swfitly she was gone.

The passage is interesting for it implies both sex and power. Aragorn notes her beauty and her virginal aspect--"not yet come to womanhood." Her awareness of him is described as a sudden coming to recognition and all the words connote power and authority--heir of kings, wisdom and age, but especially that mystery of his power and fate. Does she feel he is the king, "hiding a power she yet felt". Or do these puissant words imply sexual attraction?

It is clear what what Eowyn finds attractive is his authority and power. That might be sexualised, but it is very much an important aspect of the relationship. A daughter of kings, bred and raised in a culture that prioritises power and might, sees in Aragorn, his potential power. What is all the more intriguing about the passage is its emphasis on coldness. There is a distinct lack of any warmth or hotness.

What is also very interesting is that many details in her description could apply equally to Galadriel, save for the maidenly aspect. The height, the white gown, the gold hair, the sternness. Nothing here yet speaks of her gilded cage.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Originally Posted by Rikae
I don't see any disapproval in his portrayal of her interest in Aragorn
Aragorn put it otherwise...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The houses of healing, RotK
...in me she loves only a shadow and a thought: a hope of glory and great deeds, and lands far from the fields of Rohan

I think maybe I wasn't clear what I meant by "disapproval". Of course her feelings for Aragorn are going to be, in this sense, a mistake; but the writing does not imply that it is somehow immoral or shameful on her part. At least, it always seemed to me that it was written in such a way that it appears Eowyn's feelings, though unfortunate, are quite understandable, considering who she is and who Aragorn is.

[Lalwendë]

I think that you could say Aragorn would equally feel reluctant to encouarge Eowyn as a lover and as a young recruit to the war - not as she is a woman, though you cannot deny that in that culture it would be unusual, not appropriate even in some cases, for a woman to go off and fight. But he would not wish to take control over the ward of the King of Rohan, who clearly has another 'commander' she owes her first allegiance to - especially given that Aragorn has not long since been rebuked by Gandalf over his high-handed attitude towards Theoden!

Thus Aragorn for the first time in the full light of day beheld Eowyn, Lady of Rohan, and thought her fair, fair and cold, like a morning of pale spring that is not yet come to womanhood. And she now was suddenly aware of him: tall heir of kings, wise with many winters, greycloaked, hiding a power that she yet felt. For a moment still as stone she stood, then turning swfitly she was gone.

What's clear here is that Aragorn is struck by her beauty, but also her youth, and her coldness. She in turn is struck by his maturity and his power - it's quite a Byronic attraction for her, isn't it? I'm reminded a bit of the way Jane Eyre views Rochester.

The other interesting thing here is the power dynamic is reversed somewhat - Aragorn is obviously the mature one here, whereas with Arwen, he is very much younger and with less status. It's testament to Aragorn's character and his love for Arwen that he is able to resist the temptation of Eowyn!

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

It's testament to Aragorn's character and his love for Arwen that he is able to resist the temptation of Eowyn!

Well, come on now; does every fair woman represent a temptation for a man? And a cold one at that? This reminds me of Chris Rock saying that a man is as faithful as his options . I don't agree

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I think that you could say Aragorn would equally feel reluctant to encouarge Eowyn as a lover and as a young recruit to the war

I wouldn't agree; the problem he sees with her departure is that she would not fulfill an obligation, not that she would be unfit for battle. He points out to her that she fulfills a position that would otherwise be taken by a marshal or a captain, and that soon may come a time when even those with valor but without renown will be needed in the last defense - an obvious reference to her.

[Lalwendë]

That's exactly what I mean! Aragorn as a leader himself would well know that it was simply not his place to take away someone under the command of another King!

But as for if Aragorn found Eowyn tempting - he finds her attractive, and she makes it clear she really fancies him, and many lesser (modern?) men would be straight in there.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

What's clear here is that Aragorn is struck by her beauty, but also her youth, and her coldness. She in turn is struck by his maturity and his power - it's quite a Byronic attraction for her, isn't it? I'm reminded a bit of the way Jane Eyre views Rochester.

You seem to be developing quite a fetish for Yorkshire writers and their likenesses in Tolkien's work, Lal. In this situation, I'm a bit more struck by another Yorkshireman, a bit more of a modern one, one Ted Hughes. After all, Plath was successful at what Eowyn attempted, wasn't she?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

You seem to be developing quite a fetish for Yorkshire writers and their likenesses in Tolkien's work, Lal. In this situation, I'm a bit more struck by another Yorkshireman, a bit more of a modern one, one Ted Hughes. After all, Plath was successful at what Eowyn attempted, wasn't she?

Am I? I shall have to eat more Black Pudding and Babba's Yeads as I'm in danger of Going Tyke...

Note that on the evening they met, Plath bit Hughes in the face...I would have liked to see how Aragorn would react to that...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

[I]Note that on the evening they met, Plath bit Hughes in the face...I would have liked to see how Aragorn would react to that...

This probably belongs more on the Luthien/Thuringwethil thread, no?

Originally Posted by radagastly

We know that the Rohirrim had developed a somewhat different belief system than the structure we see in the Sil. They had a profound reverence for their ancestors, a belief neither unwarrented nor inconsistent with the myth of the Ainulindale, but certainly not specified. They seem to have held that personal honor, courage and glory in battle would lead them back to the Halls of their Fathers (how very Nordic of them, or Japanese.) What do we know of a woman's place in this belief system? How would a high-born shieldmaiden, forced into the (to her) ignoble role of nursemaid, beyond any chance of glory, tending a feeble old king, himself seemingly beyond any chance of glory as well, react to the chance of war represented by the arrival of Aragorn? Did his courteous, polite response fuel her feelings for him, or drive her into battle and doom?

I'm not sure how much could be read into Eowyn's position in terms of a full blown critique of the Rohirrim honour system, although your thoughts are suggestive, rad. It is true that such a system was thoroughly patriarchal. (And it is true that Aragorn walks in in full testosterone get up, providing a dynamic spark in a very wet situation.) Yet Tolkien expends so much thought and care and devotion to the depiction of the Rohirrim love of battle, and to the battle itself, that I'm not sure we can extrapolate to consider whether he meant through the character of Eowyn to provide a critique of such cultures. I think the emphasis is rather on a critique of her character, as she rather easily finds a place post-WotR within the the heroic structure.

[radagastly]

My, my! Thunderstorms force me to shut down for a day to avoid a power-surge, and look what all has happened in my absence! I'm happy my questions have sparked such interest.

Since my example of Arwen/Aragorn seems to have evolved more toward the example of Eowyn/Aragorn (actually, a much more complicated example in terms of the original questions), what influence did Eowyn's faith (or doubt) have on her feelings towards Aragorn? We know that the Rohirrim had developed a somewhat different belief system than the structure we see in the Sil. They had a profound reverence for their ancestors, a belief neither unwarrented nor inconsistent with the myth of the Ainulindale, but certainly not specified. They seem to have held that personal honor, courage and glory in battle would lead them back to the Halls of their Fathers (how very Nordic of them, or Japanese.) What do we know of a woman's place in this belief system? How would a high-born shieldmaiden, forced into the (to her) ignoble role of nursemaid, beyond any chance of glory, tending a feeble old king, himself seemingly beyond any chance of glory as well, react to the chance of war represented by the arrival of Aragorn? Did his courteous, polite response fuel her feelings for him, or drive her into battle and doom?

I am reminded of the old Judy Garland song:

Dear Mr. Gable, I am writing this to you . . .
You made me love you. I didn't want to do it. I didn't want to do it . . .

To what extent did Eowyn's built-in reverence for her heroic ancestors (Thengel, Helm, Eorl, etc.) translate into her feelings for Aragorn? Did she see them in him? Was she "born again" to the chance of glory and honour, or did she just see a manly man that she wanted to be with? Was it some confusing combination of the two?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by radagastly

Did his courteous, polite response fuel her feelings for him, or drive her into battle and doom?

I would say the latter is more likely the truth, that is, at least according to Faramir:

Originally Posted by The steward and the king, RotK

But when he gave you only understanding and pity, then you desired to have nothing, unless a brave death in battle.

Originally Posted by radagastly

Was she "born again" to the chance of glory and honour, or did she just see a manly man that she wanted to be with? Was it some confusing combination of the two?

Well, a confusing combination of the two, as you say; that is, she loves him because he represents all those things.