Faith and Choices - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Bêthberry · 07-09-2007, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

What's clear here is that Aragorn is struck by her beauty, but also her youth, and her coldness. She in turn is struck by his maturity and his power - it's quite a Byronic attraction for her, isn't it? I'm reminded a bit of the way Jane Eyre views Rochester.

You seem to be developing quite a fetish for Yorkshire writers and their likenesses in Tolkien's work, Lal.

In this situation, I'm a bit more struck by another Yorkshireman, a bit more of a modern one, one Ted Hughes. After all, Plath was successful at what Eowyn attempted, wasn't she?

Lalwendë · 07-09-2007, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

You seem to be developing quite a fetish for Yorkshire writers and their likenesses in Tolkien's work, Lal. In this situation, I'm a bit more struck by another Yorkshireman, a bit more of a modern one, one Ted Hughes. After all, Plath was successful at what Eowyn attempted, wasn't she?

Am I? I shall have to eat more Black Pudding and Babba's Yeads as I'm in danger of Going Tyke...

Note that on the evening they met, Plath bit Hughes in the face...I would have liked to see how Aragorn would react to that...

Bêthberry · 07-09-2007, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

[I]Note that on the evening they met, Plath bit Hughes in the face...I would have liked to see how Aragorn would react to that...

This probably belongs more on the Luthien/Thuringwethil thread, no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by radagastly

We know that the Rohirrim had developed a somewhat different belief system than the structure we see in the Sil. They had a profound reverence for their ancestors, a belief neither unwarrented nor inconsistent with the myth of the Ainulindale, but certainly not specified. They seem to have held that personal honor, courage and glory in battle would lead them back to the Halls of their Fathers (how very Nordic of them, or Japanese.) What do we know of a woman's place in this belief system? How would a high-born shieldmaiden, forced into the (to her) ignoble role of nursemaid, beyond any chance of glory, tending a feeble old king, himself seemingly beyond any chance of glory as well, react to the chance of war represented by the arrival of Aragorn? Did his courteous, polite response fuel her feelings for him, or drive her into battle and doom?

I'm not sure how much could be read into Eowyn's position in terms of a full blown critique of the Rohirrim honour system, although your thoughts are suggestive, rad. It is true that such a system was thoroughly patriarchal. (And it is true that Aragorn walks in in full testosterone get up, providing a dynamic spark in a very wet situation.) Yet Tolkien expends so much thought and care and devotion to the depiction of the Rohirrim love of battle, and to the battle itself, that I'm not sure we can extrapolate to consider whether he meant through the character of Eowyn to provide a critique of such cultures. I think the emphasis is rather on a critique of her character, as she rather easily finds a place post-WotR within the the heroic structure.

radagastly · 07-09-2007, 07:52 AM

My, my! Thunderstorms force me to shut down for a day to avoid a power-surge, and look what all has happened in my absence! I'm happy my questions have sparked such interest.

Since my example of Arwen/Aragorn seems to have evolved more toward the example of Eowyn/Aragorn (actually, a much more complicated example in terms of the original questions), what influence did Eowyn's faith (or doubt) have on her feelings towards Aragorn? We know that the Rohirrim had developed a somewhat different belief system than the structure we see in the Sil. They had a profound reverence for their ancestors, a belief neither unwarrented nor inconsistent with the myth of the Ainulindale, but certainly not specified. They seem to have held that personal honor, courage and glory in battle would lead them back to the Halls of their Fathers (how very Nordic of them, or Japanese.) What do we know of a woman's place in this belief system? How would a high-born shieldmaiden, forced into the (to her) ignoble role of nursemaid, beyond any chance of glory, tending a feeble old king, himself seemingly beyond any chance of glory as well, react to the chance of war represented by the arrival of Aragorn? Did his courteous, polite response fuel her feelings for him, or drive her into battle and doom?

I am reminded of the old Judy Garland song:

Dear Mr. Gable, I am writing this to you . . .
You made me love you. I didn't want to do it. I didn't want to do it . . .

To what extent did Eowyn's built-in reverence for her heroic ancestors (Thengel, Helm, Eorl, etc.) translate into her feelings for Aragorn? Did she see them in him? Was she "born again" to the chance of glory and honour, or did she just see a manly man that she wanted to be with? Was it some confusing combination of the two?

Raynor · 07-09-2007, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radagastly

Did his courteous, polite response fuel her feelings for him, or drive her into battle and doom?

I would say the latter is more likely the truth, that is, at least according to Faramir:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The steward and the king, RotK

But when he gave you only understanding and pity, then you desired to have nothing, unless a brave death in battle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by radagastly

Was she "born again" to the chance of glory and honour, or did she just see a manly man that she wanted to be with? Was it some confusing combination of the two?

Well, a confusing combination of the two, as you say; that is, she loves him because he represents all those things.

07-09-2007, 07:52 AM	#4
radagastly Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Washington, D. C., USA Posts: 299	My, my! Thunderstorms force me to shut down for a day to avoid a power-surge, and look what all has happened in my absence! I'm happy my questions have sparked such interest. Since my example of Arwen/Aragorn seems to have evolved more toward the example of Eowyn/Aragorn (actually, a much more complicated example in terms of the original questions), what influence did Eowyn's faith (or doubt) have on her feelings towards Aragorn? We know that the Rohirrim had developed a somewhat different belief system than the structure we see in the Sil. They had a profound reverence for their ancestors, a belief neither unwarrented nor inconsistent with the myth of the Ainulindale, but certainly not specified. They seem to have held that personal honor, courage and glory in battle would lead them back to the Halls of their Fathers (how very Nordic of them, or Japanese.) What do we know of a woman's place in this belief system? How would a high-born shieldmaiden, forced into the (to her) ignoble role of nursemaid, beyond any chance of glory, tending a feeble old king, himself seemingly beyond any chance of glory as well, react to the chance of war represented by the arrival of Aragorn? Did his courteous, polite response fuel her feelings for him, or drive her into battle and doom? I am reminded of the old Judy Garland song: Dear Mr. Gable, I am writing this to you . . . You made me love you. I didn't want to do it. I didn't want to do it . . . To what extent did Eowyn's built-in reverence for her heroic ancestors (Thengel, Helm, Eorl, etc.) translate into her feelings for Aragorn? Did she see them in him? Was she "born again" to the chance of glory and honour, or did she just see a manly man that she wanted to be with? Was it some confusing combination of the two? __________________ But all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door.