Morgoth and Doriath

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Raynor

As far as the strife between elves and dwarves, again, I see no evidence that Morgoth planned this through Hurin. Hurin was an instrument in furthering Morgoth's hatred for Men and Elves; the fact that the Nauglamir that he recovered proved later to be a cause of Doriath's demise was not and could not have been planned by Morgoth. .

Although the actual means of Doriath's fall were not planned by Morgoth, I think WCH is right in saying that Doriath was Morgoth's main target when he released Hurin.

Originally Posted by The Silmarillion

In all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done, for he hated them and feared them.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Although the actual means of Doriath's fall were not planned by Morgoth, I think WCH is right in saying that Doriath was Morgoth's main target when he released Hurin.

I am aware of that, and it doesn't constitute an object of contention . I previously referred to the same paragraph, where I argued that Morgoth's expectations with Hurin was not the destruction of Doriath, but something far less ambitious:

But he lied, for his purpose was that Hurin should still further his hatred for Elves and Men, ere he died.

[Rikae]

But surely, if Doriath was indeed his primary target, his intent wasn't merely to annoy or insult Thingol and Melian, who he "hated and feared". I would argue that his intent was to create an opportunity for the possible destruction of Doriath; he could at least foresee that it would be Hurin's destination, and probably intended that Hurin would in some way betray it or break down its defenses, albeit not in the exact way he did.

The sentence you quoted is general and, by itself, implies he had no specific goal, but the previous lines make it clear that he did, and the last line doesn't deny that.

[Raynor]

We are going in circles. I am not saying that Melkor did not want to destroy Doriath - he wanted to destroy everything (including his minions, according to Myths Transformed) - , but what were his tools in this particular case: a specific plan or planting seeds of evil which develop on their own.

[Morwen]

But surely, if Doriath was indeed his primary target, his intent wasn't merely to annoy or insult Thingol and Melian, who he "hated and feared". I would argue that his intent was to create an opportunity for the later destruction of Doriath...

I don't know that it can be said that Doriath is his primary target. After all, Hurin was captured alived in the hope that he would provide Morgoth with info on the whereabouts of Gondolin and Hurin shortly after his release unwittingly provides Morgoth with a general idea of its location. I don't see how his entry into Doriath and even his initial insults to its rulers can be part of some "Morgothian" plan for its destruction. Unless Morgoth was somehow using Hurin as vehicle to get Nauglamir to Doriath, knowing that its coming would start a chain of events leading to that Kingdom's destruction. But I don't recall this ever being mentioned.

[Rikae]

(in reply to Morwen)
By the fact that Morgoth "sought most" to set Hurin against Thingol and Melian. (Not that he was unhappy to also learn the location of Gondolin!)

I'm not claiming that Morgoth planned events to the last detail; I would assume he expected only that he was sending someone who would make his way into Doriath with evil intent. Actually, though, it would seem more likely that one of the Valar would have enough foresight to know events would occur as they did, than that he would randomly send Hurin out and hope for the best (worst), but something in between seems more likely.

[Raynor]

By the fact that Morgoth "sought most" to set Hurin against Thingol and Melian.

Please, the quote you are apparently referring to mentions that Morgoth distorted the facts concerning Thingol and Melian, not what you have stated.

Actually, though, it would seem more likely that one of the Valar would have enough foresight to know events would occur as they did, than that he would randomly send Hurin out and hope for the best (worst), but something in between seems more likely.

Again, the purpose of sending out Hurin to further his hatred between Men and Elves; a pretty general purpose. As far as foreseeing, it is based on knowledge of the music, of which Morgoth did not have much, as he was too busied at that time with his own distorted theme (even Sauron had more knowledge in that respect), and more less so in terms of the Eruhini.

[Rikae]

No, the quote says what it says - again:

In all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done, for he hated them and feared them.

and makes it quite clear he had more than simply a general purpose. Your quote implies that only taken out of context.
But you may now have the last word, since you've successfully killed my interest in this "discussion".

[Raynor]

Unhappy was the lot of Hurin; for all that Morgoth knew of the working of his malice Hurin knew also, but lies were mingled with the truth, and aught that was good was hidden or distorted. In all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done, for he hated them, and feared them. When therefore he judged the time to be ripe, he released Hurin from his bondage, bidding him go whither he would; and he feigned that in this he was moved by pity as for an enemy utterly defeated. But he lied, for his purpose was that Hurin should still further his hatred for Elves and Men, ere he died.

The quote with "sought most" reffers to what Morgoth let Hurin know. It is further in the paragraph, the bolded part, that deal with his intent in releasing Hurin.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think perhaps you're underrating the intelligence and power of the self-styled Master of the Fates of Arda. I just read a very lucid amateur review of CoH, which likened Morgoth to a chessmaster playing an amateur: seeing the board a dozen moves ahead, anticipating everything his victim might do and having a counter ready.* I have little doubt that Morgoth knew within a standard deviation where Hurin would go and what he would do.


NB: There is no authentic JRRT text associating Hurin with the Nauglamir: in all versions pre-Christopher Thingol has the Necklace made from the hoard after Hurin departs. Nor did JRRT ever say anything about Hurin being healed.




* I've been that amateur, and it's a horrible, suffocating feeling, like being Kaa the Python's prey.