The Truth of the Uruk-hai

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It is clear that Aragorn as discovered about the "Uruk-hai." But I had thought that Sauron had first bred the Uruk-hai some 400 years ago, of course a long time before Saruman. So, I can think of two possibilities, either Aragorn had never seen Uruk-hai before (which is the more likely one). Maybe, this was some odd crossing Saruman came up with, because it was of his nature to arm his soldiers with "man-like" weapons and gear.

This matter always interested me (maybe because Uruk-hai was my favourite chapter at certain time), but the only thing I can bring forward is what I think. So, the following is just my opinion on the matter, the opinion I always had but it's not verified from any sources.

I think that the Uruk-hai (and I decided, at least for myself, to make difference between "Uruk-hai" = these of Saruman; and mere "Uruks" = Sauron's "better" Orcs as it is said for example in the tale of years; not mere "snagas". This difference is, once again, just for my personal purposes). Now, I believe that the Uruk-hai were bred by Saruman, maybe by crossbreeding Orcs with Men, maybe by some different means. They did not fear light, and generally were more like Men; tall, with weapons of man-size (bows, broad swords - unlike Orc sabres). Then there were the Uruks of Sauron, like for example Grishnákh. Grishnákh, whatever he was, was not just a mere Snaga. The "mountain-worms", and the Snaga in Cirith Ungol (again, unlike Shagrat and maybe Gorbag) were something more, but I believe (personally, and just believe) that there was no Man blood in them. I base this mainly on the fact that at least from LotR (I'm not counting in possible, but unsolved debates about how the Orcs originally were created) it seems that no one has ever before crossed Orcs with Men (or it is not known in public, but from how things go in Middle-Earth, some wise man probably would if that happened, or it would come out just by observation, as in the case of Saruman's Uruk-hai). Treebeard says:

Originally Posted by Two Towers, Chapter IV: Treebeard

"(...) Worse than that: [Saruman] has been doing something to [the Orcs]; something dangerous. For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!"

The beginning of this speech supports the idea that indeed no Dark Lord has before done anything similar; and the last sentence verifies it: Treebeard's final judgement is radical and however isolated he was, it is clear he never encountered anything like that. Even Sauron never did this. So, if we read about Sauron's Uruks (for example in the connection with Ithilien in the Tale of the Years), I am inclined to think that they are something else, just "upgraded Orcs", where Saruman's Uruk-hai are the ones who are almost Men and do not fear the light. Grishnákh is not a Snaga, that's clear: and yet, during the Orcs' run in daylight, the Uruk-hai of Isengard are much faster (though even here the narrator is somewhat ambivalent):

Originally Posted by Two Towers, Chapter III: Uruk-hai

Either because they were quicker and hardier, or because of some plan of Grishnákh's, the Isengarders gradually passed through the Orcs of Mordor, and Grishnákh's folk closed in behind. Soon they were gaining also on the Northerners ahead.

Concerning Aragorn, he has, as we know, passed near the Black Gate and the valley of Morgul during his quest after Gollum. The "Uruks of Mordor" already existed at that time, according to the Tale of the Years, and it is not probable that he won't see or encounter them (and as a Ranger, he certainly won't overlook them). When he says about the Uruk-hai of Isengard that "they don't look like Orcs at all", it is, in my opinion, a sign that they look totally different than any other Orc Aragorn has seen. That would imply that the Mordor Uruks, if seen by Aragorn, have different traits that differ them from the little Orcs than the Uruk-hai of Isengard have. Let's say, the Isengarders differ from the Snagas because of X, but the Uruks of Sauron differ because of Y, but where Y is still "orcish"; X is more man-like and it seems "alien".

I am also interested how this works together with these famous "half-orcs" and "squint-eyed ill-favoured fellows", who surely were Men but not Orcs; however, there is some connection evident between the two. But what exactly, I am not sure. That would be an interesting question to answer.

[Galin]

But is it the Orcs, or their gear and device that has Aragorn wondering? A look at the text from The Departure of Boromir:

'And Aragorn looked on the slain, and he said: 'Here lie many that are not folk of Mordor. Some are from the North, from the Misty Mountains, if I know anything of Orcs and their kinds. And here are others strange to me. Their gear is not after the manner of Orcs at all!'

There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs; and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men. Upon their shields they bore a strange device: a small white hand in the centre of a black field; on the front of their iron helms was set an S-rune, wrought of some white metal.

'I have not seen these tokens before,' said Aragorn. What do they mean?'

Things I note: Aragorn immediately follows 'strange to me' with an statement about their gear -- such statement followed by an exclamation point too!

The word strange is repeated with respect to the device. And, as what is 'usual' with Orcs is the curved scimitars, thus, 'unusual' are the blades they have. And Aragorn follows the whole description revealing he has not seen these tokens before.

Granted the description begins with the Orcs themselves, and some seem to interpret the whole description that follows as being 'unusual' -- that's one way to read it, I'll admit, but not the only way I think. Indeed these Orcs are of great-er stature (than the Northerners), but arguably, so were the Uruks in Moria and the huge chieftain encountered there. I don't think that being swart and slant-eyed was that unexpected; and if indeed 'thick legs and large hands' were unusual, I'm not sure why this would necessarily point to mannish blood.

Of course they used gear that Men might use, possibly 'suggesting' something, but that doesn't necessarily make them half-breeds really. They could easily be bigger Orcs who have gotten hold of these weapons.

In any case, I must side with gear and tokens rather. This, in my opinion, is what is strange to Aragorn here, the experienced Ranger noting their gear (!) before the actual description comes into play.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

As I said, it was only my personal opinion. Interesting, though, I never knew Aragorn spoke about the gear. It's the job of the translator, I suppose, because as I know it, the sentence is "They don't look like Orcs at all." However, what you say is just one moment where the Orcs are mentioned; another is at Helm's Deep, and don't forget Treebeard's words - that's what I consider quite important. And concerning the Uruk from Moria, he was a Mordor Orc, like for example Shagrat. And if he was sent from Mordor to Misty Mountains, he was probably one of the well-trained, hardened warriors, he was probably big and strong even for his kind, just as individual.

However the part you quote brings up one important thing, and that's Gandalf's words about the Mordor Uruks in Moria. He describes them pretty well:

"There are Orcs, very many of them," he said. "And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor."

The Uruks are mentioned as large here. However, I am pretty sure that "large" means just "big in comparison to the small mountain maggots who are all over the place". And the "huge orc-chieftain" is probably the biggest among them all, however, he is described as

a huge orc-chieftain, almost man-high, clad in black mail from head to foot

which means that even though he is huge, he is almost man-high. Note this, please, it will be useful later. Another thing we are told about him is that

His broad flat face was swart, his eyes were like coals

Interestingly, "swart" is one of the words used especially for Uruk-hai of Saruman. In connection with them, the words "large, swart, slant-eyed Orcs with great bows and short broad-bladed swords" are used several times; probably to emphasise the fact that these were them who killed Boromir (as Uglúk also says, "we killed the great warrior"), but also it somewhat looks like specific sign. The speciality of Uruk-hai of Isengard is that they are "slant-eyed" - that's how you should recognise an Orc, or even a Man from Isengard: that there is something about his eyes. In Flotsam and Jetsam, Merry says:

Most of [the men in Saruman's host] were ordinary men, rather tall and dark-haired, and grim but not particularly evil-looking. But there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree: only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were.

This concerns these "squint-eyed fellows" we all know. Note please, that these are not Orcs. Merry says that there were Orcs, wolf-riders, and then Men; which he divides into these cathegories.

To make it clear, we have:
1) normal Orcs ("mountain-maggots" or in Mordor "snagas"), everyone knows them and that's what an Elf, a Gondorian, a Hobbit, or a Wizard imagines when you say "Orc"
2) Uruks, maybe or maybe not different groups of Isengard Uruk-hai (like Uglúk) and Mordor Uruks (like the "huge orc-chieftain" in Moria)
3) "goblin-faces", the Men that Merry saw. But these were clearly Men, not Orcs.

However it's also clear that Treebeard spoke about Uglúk and his Uruk-hai when he spoke about crossbreeding Orcs and Men. This implies what I said before, that the Uruk-hai of Saruman were still somewhat different, more Man-like than the Uruks of Sauron. The other thing is also that you never see these "goblin-faces" in Sauron's armies. Apart from Easterlings, Southrons and Variags of Khand there are no large groups of Men in his service; in Mordor there are just normal Orcs (i.e. Snaga and Uruks).

[Galin]

Legate of Amon Lanc wrote: '... However, what you say is just one moment where the Orcs are mentioned; another is at Helm's Deep, and don't forget Treebeard's words - that's what I consider quite important.

Treebeard being a character in the tale indeed wonders here -- he questions what is going on but he doesn't know what Saruman has really done. He has guessed right in that Saruman has bred Orcs and Men, though the result need not be the Uruk-hai however.

We know that Saruman had 'many' Uruks in his service: 'Others also came down from the Misty Mountains, many being great Uruks in the service of Saruman, though it was long before that was suspected.' Appendix A

... The Uruks are mentioned as large here. However, I am pretty sure that "large" means just "big in comparison to the small mountain maggots who are all over the place". And the "huge orc-chieftain" is probably the biggest among them all, however, he is described as which means that even though he is huge, he is almost man-high. Note this, please, it will be useful later.

Right, almost man-high, arguably big for an Orc. That's my point though, the Isengarders are not necessarily that unusual in size to Aragorn. They are greater than the Northerners just as some Uruks of Mordor could be (in general). We don't get much in the way of detail in Moria, but the Uruks there are large, and the chieftain is 'huge' (for an Orc). It is the half-orcs that are said to be 'man-high' in any case.

Interestingly, "swart" is one of the words used especially for Uruk-hai of Saruman. In connection with them, the words "large, swart, slant-eyed Orcs with great bows and short broad-bladed swords" are used several times; probably to emphasise the fact that these were them who killed Boromir (as Uglúk also says, "we killed the great warrior"), but also it somewhat looks like specific sign. The speciality of Uruk-hai of Isengard is that they are "slant-eyed" - that's how you should recognise an Orc, or even a Man from Isengard: that there is something about his eyes.

JRRT describes Orcs in general (in a letter) with slant-eyes: '...they are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes;...' JRRT Letters

In Flotsam and Jetsam, Merry says: (snip of quote). This concerns these "squint-eyed fellows" we all know. Note please, that these are not Orcs. Merry says that there were Orcs, wolf-riders, and then Men; which he divides into these cathegories.

These are described as 'half-orcs' however, Aragorn replies to Merry:

'Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree; only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were.

'I thought of him too,' said Aragorn. 'We had many of these half-orcs to deal with at Helm's Deep.' Flotsam And Jetsam

And at Helm's Deep, Gamling says: 'But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun,' said Gamling.' Indeed Saruman has bred 'half-orcs', also called Men-orcs or Orc-men in my opinion (noting that these terms are half one thing, half the other. And translate 'goblin' if desired, in either term).

'... and in his lust for mastery commited this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile.' JRRT, Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring

However it's also clear that Treebeard spoke about Uglúk and his Uruk-hai when he spoke about crossbreeding Orcs and Men.

I disagree it is clear however. Some (or many) may think so, but Treebeard has no way of knowing what Saruman has done, and what he is wondering about can easily be 'half-orcs' instead of Uruk-hai or 'Orc-folk'. Or if he saw any of the Uruk-hai, he would not know why they did not seem to mind the Sun.

This implies what I said before, that the Uruk-hai of Saruman were still somewhat different, more Man-like than the Uruks of Sauron. The other thing is also that you never see these "goblin-faces" in Sauron's armies. Apart from Easterlings, Southrons and Variags of Khand there are no large groups of Men in his service; in Mordor there are just normal Orcs (i.e. Snaga and Uruks).

Yes Sauron doesn't seem to have had half-orcs at this time

Note Merry's statement that the Southerner at Bree was 'not so obviously orc-like as most of these were'. Generally speaking two 'kinds' of half-orcs could indeed be expected when breeding Orcs and Men, and the more orc-like result would not be as well suited to spying as the less orc-like result, though indeed there may have been some grey area here.

Tolkien uses two terms when he speaks of the result of Saruman's breeding program (though not Uruk-hai or 'Orc-folk' in any case)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galin

Treebeard being a character in the tale indeed wonders here -- he questions what is going on but he doesn't know what Saruman has really done. He has guessed right in that Saruman has bred Orcs and Men, though the result need not be the Uruk-hai however.

and

Originally Posted by Galin

I disagree it is clear however. Some (or many) may think so, but Treebeard has no way of knowing what Saruman has done, and what he is wondering about can easily be 'half-orcs' instead of Uruk-hai or 'Orc-folk'. Or if he saw any of the Uruk-hai, he would not know why they did not seem to mind the Sun.

Treebeard had personal experience with seeing Orcs of Isengard coming into the forest and cutting, burning, we all know the stuff, burarum. And because of what he says, as I quoted earlier: "...[Saruman] has been doing something to [the Orcs]; something dangerous. For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men..."; it's clear that Treebeard must have seen at least some of the Uruk-hai. And if he did, then this implies that nothing like that has ever existed before in Middle-Earth, not even in Mordor, so these Uruk-hai are Saruman's speciality. The only thing you could argue about is whether the "Orcs" that Treebeard saw were not the "goblin-faces", but I'd presume that for someone like Treebeard with his long lists and ages of knowledge, he'd speak more clearly of "wicked Men" and not "man-like Orcs", had he seen these "goblin-faces". Therefore I think what he was referring to were the Uruk-hai like Uglúk was.

[Galin]

You are free to hold that interpretation of course (and I'll bet you're not alone), but what Treebeard might see and what he knows are yet two different things.

'Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand.' JRRT, Letters

Now that doesn't mean I toss aside everything Treebeard says. Indeed not! But the quote you are raising has the character himself essentially admitting that he does not know what Saruman has done. Saruman has been doing something, but what? 'I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men?'

Good questions, but questions nonetheless. Have 'half-orcs' been seen? If so the beings under question are maybe something like what Merry describes: 'horrible: man-high but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed' -- indeed the half-orcs as Aragorn calls them.

And if it was the Uruk-hai that were noted, again, how would Treebeard know (not that he would claim to know), why it was they didn't seem to mind the Sun? Big Orcs who don't appear to mind the Sun or man-high Orc-faced beings doing damage to the forest could easily be 'all the same' to an Ent... close enough in any case, with respect to Entish concerns, though it probably would make one wonder what Saruman has done.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galin

You are free to hold that interpretation of course

Well, I'm not here to hold an interpretation, I am here to learn something or to try to help uncover something. Exploring possibilities, exposing flaws in theories and trying to come to a conclusion is what I want to do

Originally Posted by Galin

And if it was the Uruk-hai that were noted, again, how would Treebeard know (not that he would claim to know), why it was they didn't seem to mind the Sun? Big Orcs who don't appear to mind the Sun or man-high Orc-faced beings doing damage to the forest could easily be 'all the same' to an Ent... close enough in any case, with respect to Entish concerns, though it probably would make one wonder what Saruman has done.

I am not exactly sure if I understand the first sentence. If I understood it correctly, you (maybe just rhetorically) ask how would Treebeard know the reason why the Uruk-hai (like Uglúk) do not fear the light. But he says it. If we presume it was the Uruk-hai whom Treebeard saw, he saw them roaming the forest at day, which of course seemed strange to him. But as he says, "these Isengarders are more like wicked Men". This means that he had to notice something "mannish" on them. And that's what I said I thought about the Uruk-hai of Saruman: that they, in contrary to the Uruks of Mordor, had something "mannish" in them, even though they were Orcs. And if Treebeard judged them like that, it surely was not just because of the gear they carried.

The ultimate question, however, leads again to what exactly he saw. But the point is, that all these goblin-faced Men made the impression that they are Men. Even Merry, though he said they were unbelievably Orcish, classified them as Men. To make the judgement he did, Treebeard must have thought to himself: "Ha, here are some Orcs!" and only on the second sight "But hey, there is something strange on them, which is not quite Orcish."

However logical and I must say interesting your theory is, this thing makes me doubt it. It would be much more interesting to let us have Uruks of Mordor and Uruks of Isengard the same, but also the "we are something special" lines the Uruk-hai make all the time make it sound like they are indeed something different, something "more" than even the Mordor Uruks.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I am also interested how this works together with these famous "half-orcs" and "squint-eyed ill-favoured fellows", who surely were Men but not Orcs; however, there is some connection evident between the two. But what exactly, I am not sure. That would be an interesting question to answer.

A most interesting thread. Not sure if this post is germane, but I've been pondering the words "ill-favored" (or "ill-favoured" for my cousins). Now, I get the gist of what's meant by the words when used to describe the other men at Bree - not male model types, never to be mistaken for elves, etc - but the word 'ugly' or some other synonym could have been used.

Why ill-favored?

Does this mean that the idea of 'favored by the Gods' existed in Middle Earth? Were only the beautiful so favored, and so anyone not so blessed must either be ignored by the Gods or even possibly subject to their wrath? Get what I mean? Weren't all orcs ill-favored, or did this just comment apply to men and other beings that turned from the side of Good?

Maybe the comment wasn't meant to be taken so literally, but then again it was spoken in Middle Earth where divine denizens and demi-gods are a dime the dozen.

[skip spence]

I think it is a mistake to see Orcs as a distinct race who are separated from Elves and Men by how they look (ie fangs, long ape-like arms, crooked legs). What constitutes an Orc is rather how it acts IMO although they of course also had many physical characteristics that stood out. Orcs are a representation of all that is bad with mankind. They do nothing that Men haven't done a million times throughout history.

Therefore I think it is difficult to accurately separate the different categories of orcs from each other. The difference between Uruk-Hai, Snaga, Orc-men and even Elves and Men is not clear cut. Just the fact that Men (and Elves in all likelyhood) are interbreedable with Orcs suggest that biologically they are all members of the same species.

If Orcs were some kind of grotesque monsters it's hard to imagine Orc-men blending into human societies. Consider also how the Elves, when they first came face to face with the Orcs in Beleriand, thought them to be Avari gone wild. They clearly recognised them as being kin, albeit cruel and wicked.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

It seems that all replies to this thread had been in unison as to the contributions of Saruman to the ecological wonder of middle-earth: The Orc, the One race which eats, drinks and makes merry (reproduces) like the Children of Illuvator, and yet breeds more after the fashion of rabbits. (10k population in < 60 years)

Actually, I was beginning to suspect that normal Elves and Men were fooled by Dr. Morgoth into participating in Middle Earth's Extreme Makeover. This means that various "races" of orcs were actually Elves, Men, Hobbits or Dwarves recently captured by the dark powers to be operated on. No sense wasting time on training and breeding, right?

To digress somewhat, Olog-hais seemed way more resilient than their distant cement-skinned cousins. And yet, the term Olog-hai sounded more in tune with Uruk-hai. Distant relations?